I think it’s just a political difference tbh- you believe what our FBI is saying under Trump and his buddy Netanyahu, I don’t. I just don’t think that civilian causalities are “well that’s the way it is” in war. If Israel is a “sophisticated third world power better than the people who attacked” then act like it.
You’re absolutely correct, though that’s a reflection of your character not that of half the country. I would recommend taking a serious look at the kind of narrative you are consuming, and the kind of people you are associated with. You’re being pushed into a radical fringe and that’s rarely healthy.
And neither of you guys are answering my question. If it’s not about land and Netanyahu staying out of jail, why didn’t he act sooner to prevent the attack? Why were IDF forces told to stand down? Kind of interesting it happened when he was about to go on trial for corruption charges…
Just because someone supports trump doesn’t mean that they support bigotry, racism, sexism, etc. a lot of republicans care more about economic issues (pay, prices of goods, low taxes, etc) and a lot of democrats care about moral issues (lgbtq+ rights, helping others in need, keeping welfare programs, etc). Not everything can or should be black and white.
You know Netanyahu funded Hamas, right? And if Israel cares so much about the hostages why have they killed more in “colateral damage” against Hamas than saved them? Why did Israel sit in its ass in the months leading up to October 7th when they had intelligence of an active threat..?
If you’re such an expert on the region than you know the whole “Israel founded Hamas.” Line is a conspiracy theory. You would also know Netanyahu opposed leaving Gaza in 2005 BECAUSE Hamas or a group like them would take over. You must also be aware that the money that Israel sent into Gaza was supposed to be spent on humanitarian projects, from which Hamas stole like the leaches they are. That’s like accusing a doctor of feeding tapeworms because he gave a sick man food.
And you would also know that Hamas won an election in Gaza, while running on a platform that stated they would kill every single Jew, you included, in order to bring about judgement day. That won popular support btw. If you really are Jewish you should know that the people of Gaza would kill you, not for a crime, or what Israel has done, just for being Jewish.
It’s not a conspiracy theory at all. Netanyahu propped up Hamas to bring the President of Palestine down. Israel had direct negotiations with them in Egypt and even turned a blind eye allowing a shit ton of Qatari money for Hamas to cross its borders. Netanyahu wants to take over all that territory and it blew up in his face. This is from The Times of Israel, Haertz, TIME magazine as well.
Israel had negotiations with them yes, they also had negotiations with the other power players in the region, that’s an example of what we call politics. It’s a dirty thing really, though we do need it more than we believe. As to the Qatari money, yes they allowed the money in, perhaps it was a mistake to do so. But that doesn’t amount to founding Hamas. And the other option was having the humanitarian situation in Gaza collapse even further, maybe they should have but hindsight is 20/20.
The Israeli government met with the leaders of Hamas in Egypt because at the time, they viewed the Palestinians as a greater threat. Do you honestly believe Netanyahu is a proponent of peace in the region? And in case you didn’t realize, it’s not a law all Jewish people need to think alike and I’m entitled to think what Ido about the Israel government. And their support for Hamas blew up in their faces putting us Jewish people at greater risk now.
And leveling Gaza could make those in Gaza more sympathetic in the same way firebombing Germany and nuking Japan (twice) made them more sympathetic to the west. Forced de-radicalization is possible. But I don’t actually think that’s what the IDF is doing. They are just fighting an urban war against an insurgency which actually wants civilian casualties. The option is level Gaza or have Oct 7 happen again and again and again.
Why didn’t they act sooner? They just missed it, like the CIA FBI DIA NSA etc missed 9/11. In counter terrorism the good guys need to be lucky every time, the bad guys only need to be lucky once. And as for the IDF being told to stand down, that’s a conspiracy theory. Special forces units were on the road in literal prototype armored vehicles within minutes. The delay of the normal IDF units was due to the readiness status of those units.
Are you not aware of how corrupt Netanyahu was prior to October 7th? He wanted to use the attack as an excuse to stay alive politically and he doesn’t give a shit who gets in his way. He doesn’t speak for me or many other Jewish people who agree with me and frankly, it’s embarrassing. People can have bad motives and it doesn’t matter nor should we excuse it because of their religion.
The number of misunderstandings is well within the average for urban warfare. And half of those “Journalists” had Hamas military papers. And if you’re aware of how much of a bad actor Qatar has been, is it really a surprise that their state media is working with Hamas? Keep in mind, by your own admission they funded the founding of Hamas.
I’m aware of the allegations against Netanyahu, I tend to think they are about as legitimate as the allegations against Trump, that being they are complete bullshit. I don’t believe Netanyahu intentionally allowed the deaths of a thousand of his own citizens in order to stay in power. By the way, that’s also by definition a conspiracy theory. And I don’t believe he speaks for you, he’s the prime minister of Israel not international jewdom. You have the right to whatever beliefs you want.
Al Jazeera has branches in other countries as well (including the US until 2016) and they have done some pretty accurate reporting around the world. There has also been a severe lack of independent verification of that claim from groups like Reporters without Borders. If Israel has nothing to hide, let those journalists in. You think this would be acceptable with any other country?
Would I think it’s acceptable to not let hostile journalists into an active war zone? Yes that’s actually standard practice for most countries. And Israel has double reason not to let the international press in because A they have proven to be hostile and openly parrot Hamas talking points over 90% of the time. And B, Hamas would happily kill them and blame Israel,
What is your evidence they were actively hostile towards the IDF? Again, all Israel has been doing, in my opinion, is acting on assumptions the entire time. It is a violation of international law to target tourists. I also want to bring up a point you made earlier about what would happen to me in Gaza because I’m Jewish… Gaza also has churches and synagogues that are being leveled, the people suffering aren’t just Muslim. So there are Christians and Jewish people suffering there as well.
And you’re right, it’s a violation of international law to target journalists, and hospitals, and civilian sites. Provided they are not being used for military purpose. And that’s the key, membership in a belligerent organization supersedes the protection of a journalist. Use as a weapons storage site strips away the protection of a hospital, and having a bunch of terrorists in the basement turns a civilian home into a military target.
I don’t think it’s Hamas data when the IDF also came out and said 83% of causalities have been civilians… another thing I feel strongly about is blame for not happening… obviously I’ve made a point of directing my criticism at Netanyahu and the Israeli government… and I’m Jewish. I never said, “Israeli people.” God forbid you criticize ANYTHING Netanyahu does, you’re anti-Semitic and EVERYONE in Gaza is a terrorist sympathizer now. I just ask people at least be consistent because again
Hamas does all of those things, for the express purpose of forcing Israel to strike them so their loyal supporters in the international media can breathlessly report that Israel is committing war crimes by striking these sites. They also intentionally place their weapons and fighting positions in civilian areas because CASUALTIES ARE THE GOAL. They want innocent civilians to die in the crossfire, because they want dead children on the cover of TIME. And they know that the media will help.
Another thing… not everyone who speaks out is a Hamas supporter, that’s such a tired talking point. It’s delusional to think that being against a genocide means your pro-terrorism… October 7th was horrendous, yes and the Israeli government allowed 1,200 people to die for a land grab… 63,000 people have died in Gaza both are tragic. I could come right back and say people who support a corrupt criminal like Netanyahu are all crooked… which he IS.
Go ahead, criticize the Israeli government all you want. But you’re throwing the word genocide around like it means a war where civilians die. It doesn’t, and this war isn’t a genocide by any rational analysis. You want to see a genocide look at Sudan, genocidal armies don’t typically drop leaflets telling civilians to evacuate combat zones. Or send texts warning of air strikes. This is a war where the people caught in the crossfire don’t have anywhere to go.
Almost everything you’re saying about Israel is propaganda. Netanyahu didn’t allow Oct 7. There is no genocide. And if you use the 63,000 figure nearly 1/3 of the deaths have been combatants. That’s an unheard of ratio in urban war, no genocide in history has only killed 2 civilians for every combatant.
Actually it is a genocide, and the people who have agreed it wasn’t aren’t “leftist” historians either. So you’re admitting what’s happening is a land grab if you’re advocating for them to just go to Egypt. I just think you’re giving Netanyahu too much leeway. He’s not a good man (neither is Hamas🙄) and peace is the last thing on his mind. He wanted a reason to stay in power.
You can insist that it’s a genocide. I can insist it isn’t. What we require is evidence, and no such evidence exists for the claim of genocide. I don’t care what the “historians” say, or what the media says. I care what the reliable, on the ground analysis by trusted sources say. The US military has conducted a review, the IDF has consistently reported correct data in past wars. Even “leftist” political analysts and legal experts can agree.
And there is no reason for Israel, one of the richest countries in the Middle East, to spend literally billions of dollars and hundreds if not thousands of lives to capture a bombed out moonscape of desert with exactly zero value to them. They held Gaza under full occupation and control until 2005 when they pulled out and essentially handed it over to Hamas.
And I’m not advocating for them to go to Egypt permanently, I’m advocating for them to go to Egypt until the war isn’t going on. You know, basic humanitarian procedures for civilian populations in conflict zones. It would be a huge benefit to Israel too because it would allow them to finally eviscerate Hamas with the firepower they deserve. But that won’t happen because Egypt knows that Hamas would come over the border with the civilians.
Again, the Israelis aren’t going to let them go back after LOL. Even if they do manage to “eradicated Hamas. You can get rid of bad people but you can’t get rid of the bad idea Hamas fight Ed have and it’ll continue to put Jewish people at risk because Netanyahu can’t get over himself.