Anonymous #1 2w

So you’re telling me a god, who can speak directly to people and guide their lives, who can bless individuals and families, who can perform miracles, has allowed for massive abuses by his representatives on earth across nearly every denomination and every century because of “free will”? When it’s good it’s god, but when it’s bad it’s just people and his hands are tied?

28

Anonymous OP 2w

Sovereignty and free will work alongside each other. God has an overarching plan for humanity, but he will not control us. Humans will still make decisions and a lot of those are bad ones at least for me personally, overall moral responsibility is left to humans even when it causes a lot of pain and suffering one thing that won’t be taken from us is the ability to make decisions

11

Anonymous #1 2w

An overarching plan for humanity where millions of people suffer and die at the hands of Christians isn’t really one I want anything to do with. He either cares about us or he doesn’t.

9

Anonymous OP 2w

would you rather have a God that controls your life and forces you to be good? Would a life without pain be fulfilling? Pain is what teaches us lessons and shows us what is good and bad. I know what you are saying and I agree completely that people suffering and dying is incredibly tragic, but it isn’t a world where people all die by the hands of Christians, Christians are also killed and restricted from practicing their faith. God gave free will so we are going to have bad people.

11

Anonymous #3 2w

So, deism.

5

Anonymous #1 2w

I fear you’re missing the point. Over two thousand years, Christians have claimed to be in communication with god through prayer yet done or allowed terrible things. Therefore your god either 1.sucks or 2.doesn’t exist/has no power. One person claiming to have god’s blessing in abuse is one thing, but entire societies? And if there were individuals who actually received guidance from god to do good, why would god not give them the power to change that?

11

Anonymous #1 2w

I deeply appreciate your desire to believe in a world where there is an all good all powerful being ensuring that things are okay in the end. But I grew up incredibly devout and curious. I have read the Bible beginning to end and attended countless sermons and events. If the Christian god exists as described, in the bible or by any of its followers, then I regret being saved as a child because I want nothing to do with him.

13

Anonymous littlepenis3.1 2w

Free will is a cop out to avoid responsibility and critical thinking.

0

Anonymous OP 2w

Bro what lmfao. There would be no such thing as responsibility without free will. If there is no free will, nobody is responsible for their actions since it’s all predetermined

16

Anonymous littlepenis3.1 2w

Yes, but the concept of free will allows the church to avoid responsibility for the actions of its members. If you don’t teach your kids the alphabet, you bear responsibility for them struggling when they get to preschool. Even though they’re their own person, you can’t take on a guiding role and then dip out on the consequences of failing to guide.

5

Anonymous OP 2w

Okay and? None of that is contradictory to free will. Shitty people exist

5

Anonymous littlepenis3.1 2w

Sure, but two thousand years worth of shitty people in nearly every church of every denomination? Shitty people in high positions of leadership fully supported by the other clergy and the church body? It starts to sound less like free will and more like a false god.

2

Anonymous OP 2w

Pretty much yeah

2

Anonymous OP 2w

No, shitty people just occupy places of power because they’re the power hungry ones. It’s no different than government bodies. Shitty people are in our government, shitty people are in politics, shitty people are CEOs, Board members, etc., so it stands to reason that shitty people will take over large church organizations because they can make money off of it and control people, the people that aren’t shitty because they don’t care enough to have vast amounts of power. It’s really not that hard

15

Anonymous littlepenis3.1 2w

That’s actually a pretty good comparison. Like (I see) churches, corporations are groups made and run by humans that are happy to do harm when it is in the best interests of the in-group.

1

Anonymous OP 2w

Yeah no shit. Still has nothing to do with God at the end of the day because we as humans have the free will to be shitty if we want to. Shitty people are always going to exploit that which is is just and pure. Why do you think it’s so easy for churches to become corrupted? Because the shitty people that do the corruption know the congregation are easy targets to manipulate because they’re legitimately good, faith oriented, people who will always give the benefit of the doubt

4

Anonymous littlepenis3.1 2w

People can infiltrate and act like crazy. Look at how many gay men stayed married to women (who didn’t even know they were gay) just for the facade. People who do shitty things through the church aren’t actual religious, faith based people. They’re just shitty con artists looking to fill their pockets

5

Anonymous #1 2w

hot take: if god was good he would've never created free will

-1

Anonymous #3 2w

It’s definitely a philosophy that makes sense for the time period in which it was popular, but I feel like we have scientific evidence to dispel the last things deism needed a god for. (Where we came from)

2

Anonymous #7 2w

So you think it’s good to control people and not let them have any choice?

7

Anonymous #7 2w

That’s just a backwards take honestly. No “good” person would dictate every outcome of a persons life. You cannot be good and controlling. Good is allowing the people to serve their own paths in life.

10

Anonymous littlepenis3.1 2w

So your god is not powerful enough to protect you from con artists?

3

Anonymous #5 2w

No because I literally got told after I was accepted at an Ivy League from my tiny underfunded high school that “god did that for me.” Like babe I did that for me.

10

Anonymous OP 2w

We don’t need protection in this life

1

Anonymous #1 2w

no. the infinite power of god to create any imaginable (or unimaginable) sentient experience makes free will a cruel and fucked up form of revenge against adam and eve. i don't think it's good to control people, but we're talking about souls, not people. i'm not saying humans should control each other. we're talking about a being capable of making existence nothing but heaven, who chose instead to punish his creations for using the will he provided with full knowledge of what they'd do with it

7

Anonymous #1 2w

you wouldn't be attached to free will if your god never "created" it. you arguably couldn't even fathom it if god didn't create it or give you the knowledge of it. the fall of man is a consequence of free will and the earth prior to that is described with utopian language. it's obvious even by the bible's own depictions that free will is the root of mankind's suffering. if god created that, especially as punishment for something he set into motion, he is not all good

2

Anonymous #1 2w

how can you say god gave free will but if my grandma dies of a heart attack right now it’d be “gods plan” and it had to happen?

1

Anonymous OP 2w

Good for you!!!

1

Anonymous littlepenis3.1 2w

Ah okay, so now we’re at the root of the issue. If what happens in this life doesn’t matter, it’s all in the next, then you’re in a death cult. You have no obligation to do anything with this life, or to improve the lives of your neighbors, or to treat people kindly.

2

Anonymous OP 2w

If you need the threat of eternal torture and suffering to be a good person, you’re not a good person.

14

Anonymous OP 2w

It’s not a death cult because suicide and homicide are still sin. Nobody gets a free pass into the next life. You can be forgiven, yeah, but only if it’s genuine. If you’re not willing to repent, you suffer the consequences. It’s not that hard to comprehend

-1

Anonymous OP 2w

Maybe. Science is a self correcting process. Nothing is set in stone. Pretty sure the JWST is finding galaxies farther back in time than we thought possible. Our idea of the beginning of the universe is always changing. But I’m not saying I believe in deism. It’s just what came to mind when I read your post.

7

Anonymous littlepenis3.1 2w

“Join me and be forgiven, or don’t and you’ll go to hell and be in torment for eternity.” Totally friendly. Also, I was raised in the religion and I remember how we talked about death. If you’re taught that after death will be better than life and that what happens on earth doesn’t matter, that’s a death cult. Even if you’re not allowed to kill yourself.

0

Anonymous littlepenis3.1 2w

Ah, good to know you just need to say sorry and that you believe in a lich-like fictional character to avoid eternal torment no matter what your actions.

5

Anonymous #3 2w

That’s true, it’s the best part! I don’t think we know even a fraction of what there is to know about where we came from, I just think we know enough to not need a supernatural explanation for lack of any other.

5

Anonymous #5 2w

It’s not that superficial either

1

Anonymous littlepenis3.1 2w

Many of the 40,000+ variants of the christian cult believe that to be the case, so…

0

Anonymous #1 2w

So you're saying that god gave us free will, except when we use that free will to not believe in him, we supposedly get sent to hell? I could feed starving children and prevent crimes for my entire life yet... I'll get sent to hell? The fact is, the "god gave us free will" take doesn't work because god isn't fucking real. Wake up. I swear half of the world doesn't have an iq above 30

1

Anonymous #10 2w

Which one?

1

Anonymous #5 2w

my God.

-2

Anonymous #10 2w

Is this the same god that I begged to fix me or let me kill myself when I was twelve years old at church camp or a different one?

9

Anonymous #10 2w

You didn’t specify which of the millions there have been, so…

0