Anonymous #1 14h

I don’t know what approach to take because I’m physically sick. No matter what there will always be men who will put down andand dehumanize women. and even if there is a majority of men who don’t do those things they benefit from the men who do. Because then we think the bare minimum is a man not hurting us.

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Anonymous OP 14h

I entirely understand being physically sick, I often am too, but that doesn’t mean that we can just stop thinking about what’s actually helpful. I have a big focus on animal cruelty and despite it making me enraged and depressed I’ve found long ago that statements like yours aimed at berating whole swaths of people don’t really achieve anything, despite it being incredibly tempting to make them.

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Anonymous #1 14h

Because this behavior doesn’t really benefit men, it hurts all of us. Coming into a group of men to just tell everyone to do better and that men make you sick just doesn’t really achieve anything. The men who do those things make us sick too, we need to create allies here not demonize everyone

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Anonymous #1 14h

It does benefit men because it becomes normal that men will beat us and abuse us. That’s what it is. It’s become normalized so therefore the men who don’t do those things which are just normal people get praised like they’re special.

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Anonymous #2 14h

I love men I just want them to do better as a whole. because I know even the good men are not out here telling the bad men to stop hurting women.

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Anonymous #3 14h

And that's exactly the level of intellectual engagement I expected.

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Anonymous OP 14h

That's totally fair and I agree with you that there's a lot of men who turn a blind eye to men who do bad things. That definitely has to change, I fully agree

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Anonymous OP 14h

Dude this is the harm I’m talking about. It is true that not enough men are telling bad men to stop hurting women, but it’s clearly untrue that no good men are out here holding bad men accountable. There are obviously some men doing that. What do you hope to achieve by dishonestly representing the situation when an honest representation is still an incredibly valid call to action? What does your rhetoric achieve and how are the good men supposed to receive it?

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Anonymous #1 14h

I think you may be misunderstanding what the original poster is saying. She isn't saying there aren't any good men holding bad men accountable, she is saying enough men stay silent or do nothing when other men around them are being sexist and abusive allowing these guys to keep doing these things. She is hoping more guys will stop doing this because guys who do this aren't actually good men

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Anonymous OP 14h

The patriarchy hurts everyone, men and women. That’s why we’re seeing men struggle so much with loneliness, drug use, academics…etc. Men engaging in that harm hurt all of us, which is why lots of us do everything we can to put a stop to that behavior. More of us should be doing that absolutely but there are plenty of men who share your views here

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Anonymous #2 13h

I mean she literally did just say that. She said “I know even the good men are not out here telling the bad men to stop hurting women”. Which is obviously untrue I agree, that’s why I was asking OP why she said it

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Anonymous #1 13h

I think when she is saying good men, she is referring to the fact that those guys may see themselves as good or other people see them as good guys, even though they aren't actually since they are turning a blind eye to misogyny and abuse, not that there really is no one that stands up to abuse. I get what you're trying to say, but I don't think that is what she meant by that and we should let her talk about her experiences without needing to worry about how some of us may read them.

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Anonymous #1 13h

I also to want to add that while I am a guy, so I obviously don't know what it's like being a woman, I have seen what OP is saying happen unfortunately. I do know a lot of guys who continue to hang out with or defend guys who do awful things despite holding views that should make them not wanna do this so it is a big problem unfortunately

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Anonymous OP 13h

His refusal to engage is honestly more intelligent then your animalistic instinct to start conflict

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Anonymous #2 13h

All love man but I was asking OP about their choice of phrase and I’d like to hear OP answer the question cause she wrote it. I think we’re all entirely in agreement that it’s a big issue but OP made a statement that was clearly untrue and I’d like to know what they meant and why they find that phrase to be helpful. Or if it was maybe just a mistake in language

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Anonymous OP 13h

No reason to argue with stupid

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