Anonymous #3 15h

So under the same logic, it would be acceptable to do the same statistics for race even if it’s a minority?

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Anonymous OP 15h

Doesn’t work on race because predominantly ethnic neighborhoods are disproportionately packed with police and heavy surveillance

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Anonymous OP 15h

sure, if you also take into account overpolicing and the fact that poverty is the main reason why crime happens. people of any race living in a bad area are more likely to commit crimes than people living in the suburbs. also no matter what stat you pull it’s still going to be men who are on average more violent so 🤷‍♀️

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Anonymous #2 15h

Scrutinizes and alienates male allies, divides communities of women who don’t feel the same aggression, leads to biases which could influence misinformation, builds up more misogyny, leads to obligation to defend women who did commit heinous acts which could harm the reputation of the feminist community, creates an imbalance from the radical parts of the feminist community that goes against gender equality

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Anonymous OP 15h

Also introduces a gender hierarchy that can lead to reinforcing prejudices like sexuality or race such as scrutinizing men from ethnic minorities that don’t benefit from the patriarchy due to not being white or scrutinizing women who don’t align with man hating such as calling them “pick-mes”, reinforces trans phobia which pits the LGBTQ community against feminists

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Anonymous OP 14h

May divide religious sub-communities in the feminist community for people with certain religions associated with a traditionalist background even if it doesn’t apply to their lifestyle such as christians who don’t hate homosexuality or non-traditional family structures. It also ironically ties an entire community into being male-centered

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Anonymous #3 14h

Is it worth digging into the same systemic injustices that may lead men to commit crimes more frequently or will we only find peace if men are extinct?

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Anonymous OP 14h

this is what i mean when i say people take this as hating men. when did i ever say i wanted them extinct? i think there are real systemic issues which cause men to commit crimes (lack of community, lack of mental health support) but that they also commit more violent crimes (sexual assault/rape, school shootings, family annihilation) that aren’t the same as stealing/fighting that can’t be explained through systemic injustices and instead bc of the patriarchy

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Anonymous OP 14h

but if you want to give me some reasoning why more men than women shoot schools up (white men specifically) i’m more than happy to hear it

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Anonymous #3 14h

I didn’t say you said they want them extinct. I’m talking about man haters in general. I think focus on mental health would solve a lot of prejudices in general since they mostly stem from anxieties and I think school shootings stem from childhood trauma. Not saying men shouldn’t be treated with caution but wouldn’t you rather cure a rapist or school shooter before he can do harm and reduce the population of men committing crimes and increase the chances of stable allies?

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Anonymous #3 14h

I think like the charlie kirk situation, it stems from mental health since he did it to make a statement coming from an overwhelming conservative background. The patriarchy does stem from men but men especially caught in traditionalist branches of society can also be harmed from the patriarchy. That’s why it’s better to build alliances based on equality instead of divisions that could repress mental health to potentially spark more crimes

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Anonymous OP 14h

if you think it stems from childhood trauma, why are women not equally as likely to become a school shooter? why not men of every race? what unique trauma do you think white men go through? if mental health is the cause behind these crimes, what does it say about men and women’s response to mental health that men are overwhelmingly represented? more women than men are in therapy yeah but that doesn’t account for how big the violence gap is between men and women

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Anonymous OP 14h

right, but bringing up the fact men on average are more violent is a fact. if alliances have to be built on coddling rather than facts idk what that’s worth. how can we ever address the issues that harm women, even if those issues are caused by mental health, if we can’t even talk about it without being accused of hating men?

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Anonymous #3 14h

I think that absolutely contributes to the gap between violence if one is more scrutinized than the other for mental health. I’m not white but I’m willing to recognize that mental health are the center to power complexes unless men are supposed to be seen as naturally aggressive or abusive of power which I don’t think so either but I don’t believe males are naturally evil otherwise that would justify eugenics or the need for targeted genocides

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Anonymous OP 14h

men AREN’T naturally more aggressive. but bc of patriarchal conditioning that punishes any emotion other than anger, they’re far more likely than women to be aggressive. my point isn’t that men are naturally monsters it’s that the patriarchy grooms them into that behavior, which leads to men being more violent than woman. that wont be fixed by providing more mental health support, it’s fixed by getting rid of the patriarchy. and people call THAT man hating

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Anonymous #3 14h

You can bring up facts and some men might not be responsive to the facts but I think even a level headed and neutral conversation like the one we’re having now is one of the most productive ways to tackle the issue as long as one doesn’t use leverage over the other cuz that’s always reinforced prejudice throughout history. If you’re trying to tame a horse by forcing it to get the saddle on or trying to corner it into a pen against its will, ofc it’s going to react aggressively

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Anonymous #3 14h

I agree with that perspective. That shouldn’t count as man hating but being a man doesn’t mean you have control over the patriarchy compared to other people. The patriarchy is just controlled by men. How will you be able to unite a community of paranoid and anxious people if they’re afraid of each other? There has to be some kind of treatment to help them overcome internal issues otherwise you spark a radical side to the community just like every race or every political side

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Anonymous OP 14h

the problem is you CANT bring up facts without it turning to accusations of hating men. and once again, the responsibility is on women to coddle and be nice enough to men so they… idk? treat us as people? like why isn’t the conversation why men see equality as hatred and in turn hate women even more? if you think men shouldn’t be expected to be nice to women if they’re being hated on (which at the end of the day is literally just words) why are women expected to be nice to men who frequently

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Anonymous #3 14h

rape and kill and abuse women?

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Anonymous OP 14h

Prejudice stems from fear or distrust to some extent. Anxieties and paranoia and mental instability could contribute the most to crimes which is why insane people are more associated with crimes than men in general like serial killer archetypes

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Anonymous OP 14h

and just like i said in my comment below, if prejudice can explain why men hate women in response to man hating, why isn’t that used as a reason for why women hate men? why isn’t the conversation about things men can do to help women trust them? why aren’t we telling men to stop raping and killing women, which again statistically they’re much more likely than women to do?

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Anonymous #3 14h

Just don’t be aggressive or scrutinize. That’s the solution it’s not about coddling. It would be less effort to be neutral about it than hostile. If accusations from insensitive men come from it, fuck them it’ll happen no matter what side it comes from. People should be nice to people it shouldn’t be ranked or one side be more deserving than the other. But there’s no equality in fear mongering. It should be tackled as a systemic issue not a resistance or uprising cuz it always gets out of hand

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Anonymous #4 14h

#3’s actually been very cooperative. I think it’s been a productive conversation

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Anonymous #3 14h

Because it justifies other things like racism or homophobia cuz the moment man hating is considered an exception, everybody’s going to try to justify everything. Not all men care about helping women because people at low points of their life don’t care about other people’s wellbeing. I came from a misogynistic mindset in my past which was when I was at a mentally bad place in my life but I went through therapy to treat it and I think recreating that for other men will help

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Anonymous OP 14h

and yet that always relies on women being pleasant. which is exactly how the patriarchy works. you can’t say there’s no equality in fear when you expect one gender to do all the heavy lifting, and then blame them when they call that out for being unfair

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Anonymous #3 14h

What heavy lifting are you having to do other than not being aggressive? Is that saying it’s built in genetics for women being aggressive towards men if it takes more energy to not hate men than meet them halfway?

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Anonymous OP 14h

that’s my point. it’s not man hating. it’s stating facts and taking about how the patriarchy caused it. that’s what’s taken as hate. that’s not the fault of women, that’s the fault of men who can’t stand the idea of equality

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Anonymous OP 14h

your whole argument is that man hating is detrimental to feminism bc it pushes men away from supporting equality. if you say that and you can understand how that causes men to not only not support women but also react with violence, why can’t you understand that when it’s men hating women? especially when that hatred comes out as actual violence and not just words online?

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Anonymous #3 14h

Because men hating women is bad too

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Anonymous OP 14h

men hating women is worse, actually. it actually results in men raping and killing and abusing women. women hating men is words on a screen. it’s not good, but acting like the two are comparable is ridiculous

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Anonymous #3 14h

If you’re not aggressive about it or using it as fear mongering, then it’s morally okay. There will ALWAYS be resistance about it even it’s for the right cause. You think no white people reacted badly or aggressively when the movements for black people’s rights first began?

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Anonymous #3 14h

Then I think there is implicit bias behind that because they are comparable even if one’s prejudice leads to more crime. It’s measurable meaning it’s comparable

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Anonymous #3 14h

The moment one’s pain is considered greater than another’s it leads to excuses on both sides. Would a woman killing her whole family be more acceptable than a man mugging a woman for her purse?

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Anonymous OP 14h

i’m ngl i’m really not interested in continuing the convo if you can’t even acknowledge men’s violence against women is worse. idk how you can even argue that when you already agreed we live in a patriarchy

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Anonymous #3 13h

I AM saying it’s worse. I’m also saying it is comparable. The amount of men committing violence isn’t incomprehensible or unable to be compared

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Anonymous #3 13h

You even have percentages that more men committed violence than women so it clearly is comparable. That’s THE definition of comparing

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Anonymous #3 13h

If this conversation is about leveraging a background of criminal statistics to get me to say something I don’t agree with, then this isn’t about feminism anymore. I support gender equality whether for men or women cuz that’s what equality means

1