Anonymous #2 18h

Tf u mean not by that much?

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Anonymous #4 18h

In most exercises except isolated upper-body movements, male athletes don’t perform significantly better than female athletes, when adjusting for lean body mass. Women even outperform men in distance running. There’s a strength gap, sure, but it’s not nearly as wide as a lot of men seem to think.

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Anonymous #2 17h

🤨 … 🐸 ☕️

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Anonymous #3 17h

Bro thinks he’s King Tut speaking in hieroglyphics

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Anonymous #2 16h

also the fact that men are way more socially conditioned to be athletic than women. if the cultural forces were equal the difference in athleticism would be much smaller

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Anonymous #2 15h

Dude the differences in world record strength feats are huge for example the deadlift and bench world records, the strength gap is definitely very wide

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Anonymous #4 15h

in the most extreme cases, yes. but we are talking about average everyday people here

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Anonymous OP 15h

Even among normal people the strength gap is very wide, like if you compare the average bench press or squat of each it’s really not close even when it’s a super light weight male involved, maybe the gap is closer for endurance idk but definitely not for strength

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Anonymous #4 14h

Bench press is an isolated upper body movement, and an olympic deadlift has a considerable upper body component. And my point is that a normal amount of training can more than make up for the physical difference most of the time. We’re less constrained by our biology than you think, so using differences in untrained strength to justify some idiotic male superiority ideology is factually inconsistent with reality.

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Anonymous #4 14h

Also, I did also mention that we’re adjusting for lean body mass, on top of mentioning that men are statistically better at upper body movements. Thus, using raw world records to support your point doesn’t actually make sense. I’d also like to point out that both these facts were mentioned in the first sentence of my comment. Maybe there’s something to be said about men being inferior to women at perceiving and remembering fine details. Here’s the PMCID of the study I’m using: PMC7930971

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Anonymous #2 14h

I can use any movement as an example, squat, leg extension, log press etc and a deadlift really is vast majority low body. And is an isolated upper body movement not an example of an expression of strength? Bench press is a great test of upper body strength. besides that, you implied that a very wide strength gap was only typical in extreme cases and not in everyday people which really isn’t true. If you need to compare a very trained woman verses an average man that kinda defeats your point

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Anonymous #4 14h

Just read both my comments and the study bro. Everything you’re saying, I already covered. And again, I gotta ask, what does this have to do with male superiority? My point is that the gap isn’t nearly as wide as people believe as long as you’re active. If you get punched in the jaw by a woman, it’s still gonna hurt.

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Anonymous #2 14h

Adjusting for lean body mass doesn’t make any sense though because that’s one of the natural biological advantages that contributes to a strength advantage just like testosterone. We can talk about lower body movements too, for example the squat, a 120 pound male is likely to squat considerably more than a 160 pound female assuming equal training. It’s just not close in terms of strength, that’s indisputable.

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Anonymous #2 14h

I never said anything about male superiority either, I’m only correcting a factually incorrect statement here which is that the gap between men and women strength isn’t that large

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Anonymous #4 13h

I’m gonna break my silence just to ask, what does adjusting for lean body mass mean exactly I won’t argue anything but I Don’t know I don’t understand what that means

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Anonymous #3 13h

I guess it’s supposed to mean people of the same weight and body fat percentage, of different genders

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Anonymous #4 13h

See, your example is EXACTLY why the researchers in the paper you haven’t read adjusted for lean body mass. Because if you subtract fat (or look solely at lean body mass), there is no significant difference between males and females. So in your example. Despite weighing more, your hypothetical man would most likely have a higher LBM than the woman. But if they had equal LBMs, then according to the data, there wouldn’t be a difference.

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Anonymous #3 13h

Lean body mass is just: gross mass - fat mass So factoring it in allowed the researchers to see whether differences in strength could be explained by differences in body fat percentage, which in many exercises, was true.

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Anonymous #2 13h

Alright I can’t stay silent and not talk I’m sorry lol I wanna play. But this is long and it’s gonna take me a while to read more of it and comprehend it better, buttt tbh my first impression so far is this isn’t as damning as you think. I assume this is what you’re talking about: “No significant gender differences after adjusting for LBM were detected for 1RMSQ (p = 0.945); 1RMDE (p = 0.472) and CMJP (p = 0.656).” 1 rep max squat, 1 rep max deadlift and some backwards momentum jump exercise I

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Anonymous #3 13h

That I don’t recognize, Let me see how do I say this without just pulling out a bunch of other quotes from this Maybe that is just the best thing to do Gimme a minute to think about how exactly I want to say this. There was a muscle thickness adjustment too. Which tbh I don’t feel like I understand very well. Like what does that mean exactly as well. Gimme a moment. Maybe I should just pull a few more of the quotes here just so we’re all on the same page. I’m only at the 2nd paragraph of the

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Anonymous #3 13h

introduction

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Anonymous #2 13h

Again the papers results really aren’t relevant here since accounting for LBM is silly given that on an everyday basis it’s unrealistic for a woman to have as much LBM. Having more lean body mass is just one of the natural advantages like testosterone that contributes to the strength gap. This is like putting a dog up against a cat and removing the dogs natural size advantage

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Anonymous #3 13h

What exactly was offensive about saying that?

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Anonymous #4 13h

Nah I mean, it’s not irrelevant, it’s just not saying what op is saying in there comments exactly. At least not entirely or even mostly Like look why don’t I just pull some quotes I think that’s easiest. Hold on

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Anonymous #3 13h

In their*

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Anonymous #3 13h

I say it’s not irrelevant bc like, even if you have equal weight people of opposite genders with equivalent body fat % and muscle composition in each part of their body, part of what they’re trying to do is explain the differences they and others see in the sexes when trying to adjust for that stuff. Which like, tbh I don’t think any of us exactly know the answer to, like they talk about strength per unit of cross sectional area or lean body mass not differing substantially between sexes particu

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Anonymous #3 13h

Gosh I don’t want to ramble but I’m going to whatever

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Anonymous #3 12h

Here why don’t I just post photos instead I need to go do something for 20 minutes anyway but I’ll come back and try to talk while I do it

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Anonymous #3 12h

That will be better than me just rambling and paraphrasing anyway. I feel stupid doing that But so th

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Anonymous #3 12h

being stronger is being stronger, the reason why isn’t really relevant to my claim, a man and a woman having similar lean body mass is the exception, not the norm, this just doesn’t make sense in the context of this argument

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Anonymous #3 12h

Uhm, also like, ehhh A sample population of 16 male athletes, 14 female athletes is not a lot. And these are like women who train their legs, and back every week not average women, But even with that they’re getting p values < 0.05 for mostly the upper body related stuff after LBM & MT adjustment Uhm hmmm The deadlift surprises me tbh. Hmmm actually they all still surprise me a little, but I guess I don’t know why they should exactly I mean, I see what 4 was saying I guess like the main advan

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Anonymous #3 12h

Yeah it’s not saying the women are just as strong or that the difference in strength “is not nearly as wide as a lot of men think” 4 is pretty much right about that in a way. It’s still easier for Men to gain muscle through training than it is for Women, the testosterone does help build muscle mass a lot faster and easier. I have to think about this more before I say more on it And I really should go do my thing so I’ll come back.

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Anonymous OP 12h

It’s not predominantly social conditioning, it’s an actual genetic predisposition towards that stuff. There’s sexual dimorphism in humans and part of that is genetics and instincts that push towards separate roles, jobs, ways of thinking. I do think it would be much smaller if the social pressures were different and I think we have that now. That’s like what we currently have versus what was social convention 50 - 70 years ago and tbh I don’t think it makes people happier to try to push against

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Anonymous #3 12h

each genders nature and try to make them both more androgynous than they were 50 - 70 years ago.

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Anonymous #3 11h

It also doesn’t really mean anything about when each gender plateaus if they do strength train or are an athlete. You were saying it’s not that much of a difference and can be overcome by a little work. And yeah I guess that’s true if you want to be stronger than a male that never exercises. But I assume women will still plateau a lot sooner in their progression than a male will. Like 4 said

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Anonymous #3 11h

Also I mistake 2 for op at one point. My mistake op

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Anonymous #3 11h

Mistook* And probably should have read more of this before jumping in. I’m like still catching up kind of and skipped over a bunch of comments and went right to the paper after the 1st few comments Plus I guess I like never update the page unless I actually post a comment. So I don’t see what you guys say until I reload it which is sometimes 20 minutes later

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Anonymous #3 11h

Was trying initially not to say anything about it bc I thought it would just be bad. Try not to get drawn into it But yeah 4 is right I sort of see what you and Op are saying 2 but yeah It’s an unavoidable massive physical advantage. You can try to work harder around it to keep up but a man is just inherently going to have an easier time building muscle even a smaller man. When I was around 18, 19, 20 there was a woman in my gym who squatted about the same as me. We may have been at exactly

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Anonymous #3 11h

The same weight we were squatting, she may have been squatting 5 lbs more than me when I first encountered her, and I imagine we were doing the same volume or at least pretty close. I know this is anecdotal but I remember seeing her a few days or a week later, and we were not squatting a lot, maybe like somewhere between 165 and 185, which is a lot for most women and was impressive for her, I mean she was pretty built and the same size as me roughly, I’m not tall. But it’s still pretty easy for

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Anonymous #3 11h

Well not easy but, doable at least for me, as a small male to add a small amount of weight each time I squat as long as I eat enough up until 200 - 225 lbs where i start to struggle with doing that and plateau and have to take longer between adding more. But for her like a week later she was still stuck on the same weight and was kind of plateauing already and just moved at like half the pace of adding weight despite having been doing it a lot longer than me. And like I have to cope with the

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Anonymous #3 11h

same kind of disadvantage compared to males who are taller than me. Or males who just have genetics and a mindset and body that are better suited towards it. Like some males can easily do stuff with no training that takes me weeks or months to be able to lift. And they also plateau a lot later than me and don’t start to struggle with adding weight until later than me. Like my brother is the same height as me, but has more body mass / stockier & is generally a bit better at progressing quickly an

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Anonymous #3 11h

and he can fairly easily get up to I think a 275 squat I’d guess before he really kind of plateaus and struggles. He doesn’t even really need to be as consistent as me and it’s still that doable for him. I’ve had a 6’ 4” friend lift weight with no training that takes me like month to be able to lift. Granted he kind of doesn’t do it for reps and sets or with the best form but he can still do it immediately with no prior preparation at all It’s just kind of how it goes. You don’t have to feel

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Anonymous #3 11h

Like males are acting superior just bc they’re realistic about it, I mean it is definitely a thing

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Anonymous #3 11h

*months

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Anonymous #3 10h

Where do you guys find this stuff anyway / encounter it 1 rep max is a choice I guess. I suppose it keeps it simple for a strength that 🤷🏻, seems they still got a power difference though between the men and women when adjusted for LBM, just not a strength difference that was enough to be statistically significant. I don’t think I’m gonna take the time to read the methods and how they do the adjustment

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Anonymous #3 10h

for a strength test 🤷🏻,*

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Anonymous #3 10h

That was enough to be statistically significant in the lower body*

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Anonymous #3 10h

Oh yeah I keep forgetting to say this bc I keep going back to looking at this thing But also like, I’m not gonna dig through NCBI or whatever else to find a comprehensive perspective but my experience with this stuff is often you can usually find some evidence & arguments pointing any which way you want, 1 study by itself doesn’t really confirm anything. It’s just some people’s written up perspective on something they did. Not that I think there’s anything wrong with this just, important to say

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Anonymous #3 10h

Yeah I mean, the deadlift and squat still surprise me, and I guess the jump too Even though I don’t exactly have a great reason to be surprised besides that I would think Male athletes would outperform women athletes even if you’re doing some muscle mass adjustment to the data / the results, but also it can be realllly hard to get p values to comply and send a signal sometimes even if you have data that in some way shows something notable. I guess I really should look at their tables and see

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Anonymous #3 10h

I don’t want to really, read this whole thing or even most of it but, I will eventually I guess just to see if I see anything notable. And just to try to understand better what they have and what they did and how the adjustments are made

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Anonymous #3 10h

But I’ll do it in like 2 hours or so at 4 am. I think I need to eat and other things

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Anonymous #4 10h

Is it the exception? I mean it kind of is in the sense that sexual dimorphism exists and men are often bigger and more muscular but Even if you have a woman like you said who weighs more or is slightly taller than the man and even if they’re both not athletes, usually the male will still outperform her slightly I would expect no? Is it really just bc the male has more muscle than the woman despite her greater height and weight? I guess it must be, or at least mostly must be. I guess the LBM / l

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Anonymous #3 10h

lean body mass term is kind of confusing me a bit too. It’s just a fancy way of saying who has more muscle then I guess huh?

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Anonymous #3 10h

Wait, 2 said it’s gross mass - fat mass? Well that’s a little different actually. Your measuring bone density and organ density. But maybe they’re… I guess they can’t be adjusting for a specific muscular region. I don’t know how they would do that

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Anonymous #3 10h

you’re*

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Anonymous #3 10h

Well, organ mass and bone mass* not density

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Anonymous #3 10h

And whatever else. Idk I should find out for sure before I say I’ll come back and try to read more of it. I need to take care of my body man. I shouldn’t be doing this rn anyway

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Anonymous #3 9h

But it sounds like you’re not just looking at muscle mass I’m sure it’s still a pretty solid correlation that as your lean body mass goes up… I’m not even entirely sure what I’m trying to say And I guess when you’re any type of athlete that trains your bone density goes up. But there are a lot of differences between the sexes besides just the increased muscle mass. I’ll think about it later and read this later

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Anonymous #4 7h

I should upvote 4 more. Don’t think I’m going to but I should. Most if not all of what he said Direct and to the point and accurate

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Anonymous #3 7h

Maybe I’ll do it in an hour or several or maybe this afternoon or tonight. Idk 🫤😪😒

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