Anonymous OP 1d

They have every right to have a deep mistrust of Israelis they’re literally being occupied and displaced by them?? And yeah bc Israel is? That’s just historical fact

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Anonymous OP 1d

Because of the power imbalance, Israelis feel invincible and Palestinians feel hopeless. This leads to Israel pursuing reckless and, in my opinion, unjustifiable expansionism. And for Palestinians it creates intransigence. For Palestinians, if your mindset is all or nothing, you should not be surprised if you get nothing. And the same goes for Israelis, who will at some point overplay their hand.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Make no mistake, you are not “the left”. Decolonial struggle is a key component of anti capitalism

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Anonymous #1 1d

Have you ever stopped to ask yourself why there’s an occupation? Why there are checkpoints? It’s in response to a reality on the ground. Suicide bombings on busses, surrounding countries threatening to destroy you, etc. And the same goes the other way. The destruction of Gaza is as rational as October 7th was. Contrary to a superhero movie, countries are not a binary all good or all good evil. Countries and organizations can do evil thing rationally

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Anonymous OP 1d

Of course? I’m very well coursed in the history. There’s an occupation there in order to destabilize the region for capitalist exploitation. Nothing justifies occupation or preventing indigenous ppl from moving freely… Resistance to occupation is not equivalent to a genocide…. You’re not the left Who said countries are all good or bad? This is a case of colonialism…. Not good vs bad

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Anonymous #1 1d

Of course they distrust Israelis. And of course Israelis distrust Arabs, that’s literally my whole point. As for whether you think Zionism is colonial, idgaf. Zionism is deeply unfair for Palestinians. The Holocaust and 2000 years of antisemitism was unfair for Jews. Jews have a right to live in israel not because god said so 3k years ago or wtv, but because the world said so 80 years ago. Also, you don’t apply this standard to Mexicans. Israelis have lived there for now generations.

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Anonymous #1 1d

I said left, not communist. I want Palestinians to have a country, I also want Jews to. If your vision of a free Palestine means erasing Israel or does not consider the wellbeing of millions of Israelis, then idk what to tell you. We can duke it out in forever wars and see who wins (hint: it won’t be Palestine). You can continue to cry about it then, ig. Peace will only come when both sides think the status quo costs more than the solution. When you’re willing to put the past aside

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Anonymous OP 1d

Well excuse me, I commented before you finished all your comments. I didn’t realize your post wasn’t complete until after I commented You don’t get to oppress others who have nothing to do with the holocaust and 2000 years of antisemitism to your benefit tho? That’s not how life works So you think European settlers had the right to genocide and displace native Americans bc the world allowed it I’m assuming?

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Anonymous OP 1d

Wait Mexicans? What

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Anonymous #1 1d

I don’t need you to validate my political orientation, respectfully. If your resistance includes killing, raping, and kidnapping babies, women, and the elderly, I think you’re a bad person. (This goes both ways). But your comment is telling, you do see the world in black and white. Bc you call it colonialism, to you it’s all evil, you can’t rationalize it. Rationalize why survivors of a holocaust might want to build a society for themselves away from a world that’s long scorned them.

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Anonymous #1 1d

Most Latinos are majority of Mexican descent. You don’t think of them as settler colonizers over those who are entirely native. You accept that they’ve lived there for generations and they have a claim to their lands.

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Anonymous OP 1d

I didn’t say communist? I said anti capitalist. Which is what “the left” means. You’re a liberal then, stop using the wrong label if you don’t want confusion My vision actually does consider the well being of Israelis. Decolonization doesn’t mean further displacement or murder. It just means the government is gutted and sovereignty returned to the indigenous population Continue to cry about it? Jesus Christ for someone who claims to be “left” you’re sure lacking in basic human compassion

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Anonymous #1 1d

Welcome to the world, life’s not fair. You’re mad at Jews for something the world imposed on us. They kicked us out of Israel, we suffered, and we returned. If I could rewrite history, binationalism might have been better (but still naive), but that’s not how it played it out.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Well when you misuse terms of significance, I’m gonna correct you. Who said that’s what resistance is? You sure think incredibly lowly of Palestinians. You talk about them like they’re animals How do I see the world in black and white? It’s quite the opposite actually I call it colonialism bc I know what colonialism means bc I’ve studied it extensively?? Like what

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Anonymous OP 1d

Ofc I understand why early Jewish refugees would want a place of refuge. That still does not excuse settler colonialism and it never will

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Anonymous #1 1d

But again, this is the problem, you’re relitgating the entire history. From that you’ve come to the conclusion that anything other than Palestine having all the land is unfair. And from that, I as no longer gaf about hearing you out and making peace, and will do what it takes to protect my country. You’re condemning us to annihilation bc you don’t fundamentally believe in peace.

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Anonymous #1 1d

I translated שמאל which means left in Hebrew. Sorry if it has a different connotation. But your solution doesn’t consider the wellbeing of Israelis, I think the one state reality we have is incredibly violent. Why are we trying to cement it??? And this is another point I have, Israelis are as indigenous as Palestinians. They have, at this point, every right to be in the land as they do.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Mad at Jews? Girl I’m mad at the modern nation state of Israel bc it’s a settler colony 😭 so you don’t believe in decolonization for Native Americans either?? And you really call yourself the left? The world didn’t kick us out of historic Palestine, the Roman Empire did 2000 years ago. And the Roman Empire is long gone. You’re thinking incredibly nationalist and tribalist

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Anonymous #1 1d

I think I think lowly about both Israelis and Palestinians actually. Israel has incredible amounts of racism and war is normalized as a fact of life that does not go unchallenged. Just the same is true of antisemitism and extremism in Arab society, I’m not naive about it. The cultural issues that stem from decades of war are not one sided.

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Anonymous OP 1d

I’m not relitigating history bc you can’t change the past. But you can change the future? You just believe everything will always stay the same so we shouldn’t try to improve things? That’s incredibly nihilistic. I’m much more optimistic regarding the world constantly improving upon itself. Things can change, revolutions happen all the time and colonies do fall! We can’t just give up. And yeah anything other than decolonization is unjust. Absolutely

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Anonymous OP 1d

I want Jews and Palestinians to peacefully live alongside each other in the historic land of Palestine like wdym. That is impossible under occupation, partition and apartheid. You realize that, right

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Anonymous #1 1d

I think it’s intellectually dishonest to think about Zionism the way you think about European colonization. Israelis aren’t like the French in Algeria, it’s not like they had somewhere to go back to. They weren’t trying to create an extractive relationship with the land but build a new life and society for themselves. The yishuv was organized as a community that existed within a state, not a state itself. You must hate refugees and you call yourself left???

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Anonymous OP 1d

No the current two state solution is the one that clearly hasn’t worked for 80 years wdym 😭 partition and nationalism will always sow division and conflict

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Anonymous OP 1d

And no that’s not what indigenous means. I can repost a video I just saw that explains it well if you’d like

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Anonymous #1 1d

What does native decolonization entail to you? Should American Indians have full citizenship, ofc! Should we live in a tribal dictatorship, no. I have as much say in America as they do, at this point. Migration is a reality, indigeneity is not permanent (otherwise, you really can’t be mad at Jews).

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Anonymous #1 1d

Wait id argue the two state solution worked alright for the first 20 years of Israelis history (Egypt and Jordan were in charge of the now occupied territories). Since then the occupation is a one state reality where one side has no say over their daily life

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Anonymous OP 1d

But there was already a rich community and culture there tho, you can’t just erase it and displace/murder the ppl already there bc you’re in need of refuge. Why couldn’t they just immigrate and live peacefully alongside the exiting population? Instead they had to bulldoze over it and create a new culture. Banning the culture of the indigenous population Girl settlers are not immigrants or refugees. Were the pilgrims refugees and therefore their genocide of the native population justified?

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Anonymous OP 1d

As lovely as this is, I’m going to bed. My bracha for you is that you can try to empathize with why the other side might think what they do before you impose your morals on a century old conflict from the outside. Also watch the ask project on YouTube if you want to get depressed about how extreme average Israelis and Palestinians are. Then maybe then you will consider what’s realistic.

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Anonymous OP 1d

American Indians is an outdated term btw. They’re not from India Decolonization here means the infrastructure of the American government is dismantled and sovereignty (decision making essentially) is returned to the indigenous population. To create a new government and organization of land. Descendants of settlers like myself do not have the same say as indigenous Americans Tribal dictatorship??? Why do you think so lowly of indigenous ppl, why would they impose a dictatorship 😭

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Anonymous #1 1d

One last comment, 1948 was a civil war. There’s plenty of reasons coexistence didn’t work out - there was tons of sectarian violence before. Particularly due to fears about Jewish immigration (if the British were willing to take Jews at Evian, millions could have been saved). In this way, the Holocaust and Nakba are deeply related, it was the same push factor that fueled xenophobia that fueled sectarian violence.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Partition at that time period was seen as a normal, positive thing to do. Think India, Greece/turkey, Ireland, Germans in the east (including very old communities).

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Anonymous OP 1d

I was raised with this shit, ofc I have empathy. I know the other side very well. You don’t have any empathy for Palestinians tho, it’s clear. Once I took time to educate myself, the true picture became very clear. I’m passionate about decolonial struggle and anti capitalism and I won’t apologize for it. I’m grateful to have expanded my mind on this topic

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Anonymous #1 1d

If you go near an Indian tribe, they will call themselves Indian. Native American is a whitewashed sanitized term that they themselves do not use. And yeah see, what you described is tribal dictatorship. Dictatorship in the sense that it’s not democratic. I’m not a fan.

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Anonymous #1 1d

Brother you’re making an awful lot of assumptions about me and my education. I grew up in a place where Arabs were the largest minority group. I grew up around Palestinians and know their narrative as well as I know the Jewish one.

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Anonymous OP 1d

That’s not true, it’s more generational. Elderly indigenous Americans are more accustomed to the outdated terminology bc that was what was used back then. It’s still outdated. Indigenous ppl having sovereignty of their land and putting an end to colonialism is a dictatorship? Yikes

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Anonymous OP 1d

Also meant to say European descent for my point about Mexicans. Not Mexican descent.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Their “narrative” 🙄 but you never were indoctrinated with it? Most of us were indoctrinated with Zionism from birth. So yeah I’m very much familiar with it 😭

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Anonymous #1 1d

I didn’t grow up in a Zionist household. A system were one set of people, based on their descent/ethnic group has more rights than another and makes all the decisions in the country, yikes! (This is exactly what you described).

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Anonymous OP 1d

No that quite literally is what Zionism and nationalism means? They don’t have more rights they just have their rightful sovereignty back…. That doesn’t mean a 100% Native American government or dictatorship 😭

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Anonymous OP 1d

The hypothetical government would end up being a coalition considering how descendants of settlers and immigrants far outnumber the indigenous population. But it would be organized in a way that respects the land and the indigenous ppl and culture. Instead of exploiting it like colonialism and capitalism does

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Anonymous #1 1d

That implies that they have more say than others. Perhaps what you are imagining is a native/indian state, a state which is based on native/Indian values and devoted to the protection of that group whenever they face persecution. That doesn’t sound so bad now doesn’t it? How you get there is another question, is that possible if that group is a minority, maybe. I’d rather have a two state solution so it’s not in doubt.

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Anonymous OP 1d

I mean it was stolen from them so yeah it should be rightfully returned. That doesn’t mean “fuck everyone else” 😭 again, you really think that lowly of Native Americans. And yeah! That’s what I’ve been describing lmao

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Anonymous #1 1d

You exist in buzzwords my friend. What does a non capitalist non exploitative non colonial economic system look like to you? How do we sustain 8 billion humans unless you’re suggesting a thanos. The horseshoe theory is so real bc tell me why you literally think people should go back to where they came from… like that’s the undertone of this conversation.

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Anonymous #1 1d

No you’re suggesting 1% of the population has more say than 99%. I’m suggesting a constitution.

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Anonymous #1 1d

It was stolen from them more than a hundred years ago, and us 2000 years ago. When do you draw the line?

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Anonymous OP 1d

Buzzwords? These are just terms commonly used in leftist spaces. You’d know that if you were actually a leftist. And read “the wretched of the earth” by Frantz fanon for your answer to that question. I’d need a whole dissertation to outline everything for you. Socialism would do more than just sustain the earth’s population, it would allow everyone to thrive. Under the current organization of capitalism, profit is the ultimate goal. Nothing else. It’s not really human based. Socialism is

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Anonymous OP 1d

Wait no way you’re referencing the far right horseshoe conspiracy theory. That’s been thoroughly debunked Where did I say ppl should go back to where they come from?? I literally repeatedly said that decolonization does NOT mean displacement

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Anonymous OP 1d

Uhh bc the US empire still very much exists and the Roman Empire doesn’t 😭 there’s nothing to decolonize bc the Roman Empire hasn’t existed in hundreds of years

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Anonymous OP 21h

If you think that s destroying a strip of land the size of Manhattan that is home to 2.13 million people is the same as attacking a music festival with 3500 attendees you’re absolutely delusional

0