Anonymous #1 1d

The difference is a cis man has gone through life as a man and identifies with that experience. Someone who calls themself a trans man but identifies with nothing from the experience of being a man and who doesn't actually try or care to try to get that experience doesn't make sense to me in concept. Like in what sense are you transitioning if literally nothing changes from the time that you were a woman to the time that you started calling yourself a man except that you call yourself a man?

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Anonymous #1 1d

Like you're clearly not closeted and you're not even going for like a normal androgynous casual look, you're full swinging it all the way to hyperfemme. That doesn't make sense lol

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Anonymous #1 1d

And then like beyond looks, you literally don't associate with or relate to men at all like what makes you a man at that point

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Anonymous OP 1d

Genuinely identifying as a man is what makes someone a man. If you don’t apply this same logic to cis men, then what does that say about the way you see trans men? Trans men are men, just like cis men. If cis men are allowed to be hyperfemme, not have male friends, and still be men in your eyes; so can trans men.

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Anonymous #5 19h

I don't actually care but I would like to try to understand just no one can give any rationale for it

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Anonymous #1 19h

I literally wrote a paragraph applying the same logic to cis feminine men, idk what else you're looking for if me applying the same logic apparently doesn't count as applying the same logic

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Anonymous #1 19h

Like way to miss the key point that is they have gone through life as a man and identify with that experience. If they wanted to identify as a woman then they would and they actually would probably identify with a good amount of the experiences of women

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Anonymous #1 19h

If you don't try to live life as a man and you don't identify with any aspects of the experience of being a man then why do you identify as a man? That is the logic I'm applying, that is the question I'm asking

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Anonymous OP 19h

Why would a cis man want to be feminine when he could just be a trans woman?

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Anonymous #5 19h

not all women are feminine either.

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Anonymous OP 19h

Its quite literally nunya simple as

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Anonymous #4 19h

I’m aware, I’m just using another example to highlight how gender if fluid. Nothing beyond wanting to be called a man matters at the end of the day.

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Anonymous #3 19h

that’s not a trans man then, but keep telling yourself that

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Anonymous #3 18h

I don't think it's crazy to want to understand where people are coming from. Sorry that I'd rather actually come to an understanding and see you for what you say you are rather than just call you what you want to be called to be polite but not actually seeing you that way. I think the first way is actually better, sue me i guess.

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Anonymous #5 18h

Because he still identifies with the experience of being a man and lives life as a man. Idk why everybody keeps ignoring that part and pretending like I said "man = masculine or woman = feminine" when that's literally not what I said.

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Anonymous OP 18h

you can see someone for who they are when they tell you who you are. if you actively choose not to acknowledge that and continue to only perceive them as you think they should be then that’s a you problem, not them. trans people don’t owe you any certain presentation to be respected and acknowledged. if you are struggling to accept that then you need to fix your own perception of gender expression.

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Anonymous OP 18h

also transitioning at its core doesn’t mean physically changing. it’s about finding the personal state that fits you best to be the most true version of yourself and that version doesn’t always mean conforming to the status quo of your gender.

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Anonymous OP 18h

Because I think “identifies with past experiences” can be applied here also. If a trans man doesn’t identify with his past experiences as a woman, but still enjoys dressing feminine and wants to be called a man, seriously what’s the issue. Gender is fluid, which means there’s more than likely something out there you’re not going to understand. I think it’s strange to harp on minor cases such as these for something like gender

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Anonymous #5 18h

Okay but not identifying with the experience of being a woman is not the same as identifying with the experience of being a man. Like there's more than 2 options

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Anonymous #5 18h

I'm not harping on anything, I'm asking questions on something I don't understand and you don't understand either because it's not your experience lol

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Anonymous #6 18h

I never said that transitioning means physically changing

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Anonymous OP 18h

No I don’t really get the feeling, but I’m more than aware of how fluid gender is. I also don’t care enough to post about it on the internet and then argue with all of the replies. People can live how they want, identify how they want, idc as long as they’re happy

8

Anonymous OP 17h

if you want an explanation from experience i will give you one: i am a feminine trans guy and ive known i was trans since i was like 12. a lot of my childhood and teenage years i fluctuated between dressing masc and fem. i have always had a love for feminine clothing and it is something i am very much attached to esp in a queer sense. i loved dressing that way as a teen but hated being perceived as a woman.

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Anonymous #6 17h

however once i started T it was a lot easier for me to dress this way bc i finally felt like a man in feminine clothing and not a woman. my voice is lower and i have a mustache but i don’t bind anymore. i also don’t have a lot of cis guy friends bc i don’t really relate to them. i have a few but it was mostly through school and work bc of my field of work is predominantly men. being feminine as man keeps me the most in touch with my gender and queerness and it’s what makes me happy in my body.

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Anonymous #8 16h

Also as a trans man, I’m not friends with a lot of cis guys because they are literally fucking awful to be around once they get comfortable with you. I don’t want to be around a lot of them with the way they speak about their partners/hookups, women in general, and minorities

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Anonymous OP 14h

I see ppl as how they identify regardless of if i get it, its not that hard

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Anonymous #3 13h

You can virtue signal and say that but your outward niceties and inner thought corrections are not the same as your actual subconscious first order thoughts. 95% of trans people I do actually see as how they identify. The "gender is fake" crowd who legitimately does nothing to identify with or align with the gender they identify with and tries to be even MORE like the gender they were assigned makes up the 5%. I'm real enough to say that, I don't have to pretend to strangers on the internet

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Anonymous #6 13h

I understand this. This makes sense. But I will say this is not what I'm talking about in the post so it doesn't really answer the question I'm asking about a niche particular circumstance

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Anonymous #12 12h

To live your life as a man means you've gone through life being treated a certain way and with people interacting with you a certain way because you are a man. Living life as a man means you live your life with the intention of experiencing manhood, relating to men, and making some effort to try to understand what actually makes the social construct of manhood a thing that exists and is identifiable beyond genitals. At least 1 of those should apply

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Anonymous #12 11h

And if you disagree that one of those two things should apply for you to identify with one gender over another, I'm genuinely curious what exactly makes you identify with one gender over another? And "it's none of your business" or "because it just is" doesn't do anything to help me understand.

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Anonymous OP 11h

And you’re able to identify someone’s identity with gender based solely on the way they present themselves and the gender of the people they associate with? People have very unique relationships with gender, their expression of their “intention to experience manhood” may not be what you think it should be. Why do people have to go about it your way?

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Anonymous OP 11h

would you have cared less if this hypothetical person identified as nonbinary?

12

Anonymous OP 11h

would it be different if i wasn’t on testosterone? because if so, again, it just seems like you are clinging to your own perception of what makes a man rather than taking the time to understand why trans people identify they way they do

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Anonymous OP 11h

1)“Being treated a certain way…because you are a man”: trans men who are unable to pass or want to express themselves more femininely are often treated as women by general society because we still associate secondary sex characteristics and certain other features and ingrained traits as “womanly” or “manly”. (1/5?)

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Anonymous #12 11h

I have a very large chest and am prevented from attempts to pass by close proximity to transphobic family, as well as fear of my government. This qualification excludes many trans men and myself from being men. (2/5?)

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Anonymous #12 11h

2) “Live your life with intention to experience manhood”: What is manhood? Do you think your definition is the same as every other man’s? Do you think it’s fair to use your specific definition of manhood to disqualify other men with different definitions from being men?

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Anonymous #12 11h

3) “Social construct of manhood”: as a trans man, I feel my personal definition of manhood is very different from the general societal construct of manhood. I will admit that yes, I have experienced life as a woman (though I would not say the same for all trans men, this is personal), and as such I have experienced misogyny. I have been belittled, insulted, and assaulted by men. (3/5?)

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Anonymous #6 11h

It's not that i care more or less. But I wouldn't be asking questions because that would make sense

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Anonymous #12 11h

I have seen the crimes committed in the name of “manhood,” and I am proud to say I do not subscribe to society’s idea of manhood. If this disqualifies me from being a man, it says more about the patriarchy than it does about me. If this sounds different from what your idea of society’s manhood is, it only proves point 2 further that manhood is subjective. (5/5)

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Anonymous #8 11h

I literally never even said what my way is lol I don't have a way of being a man because I'm not a man

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Anonymous #12 11h

I don't have a definition of manhood I'm not a man.

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Anonymous OP 11h

You clearly have an idea of what it means to be one, otherwise you wouldn’t be making a post singling out trans men who dress “femininely” to YOU

4

Anonymous OP 11h

then why are you saying these trans men you’re talking about don’t conform to your preconceived notion of a man if you don’t have a definition of manhood? bc you’ve pretty clearly listed out in other comments what you THINK a man should be or do

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Anonymous #8 11h

No, I just know what it means to be a woman and if you're doing literally nothing different from when you identified as a woman to when you started identifying as a man and everything you did as a woman was perfectly normal and in line with general ways that women act and interact, then I am going to ask what makes you a man

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Anonymous #8 11h

I'm not singling out trans men who dress femininely. If you have a beard and wear a dress that's not confusing to me. If you're on T and wear makeup that's not confusing to me. If you don't do anything to physically transition but you still act like a guy and/or dress like a guy, that's not confusing to me. What's confusing to me is when you don't do anything different from when you identified as a woman and nothing you did as a woman went against the norm of what women do

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Anonymous OP 11h

Maybe they are doing something different, you just don’t know them well enough to see it. Maybe they’re going by a different name in a small circle, maybe they’re afraid of being rejected by the people closest to them if they start appearing too “masculine”, maybe they just feel comfortable in the body they’re in but want to be referred to with masculine pronouns. Whole point being, why is it up to you to decide if someone wants to change/has changed enough to be considered trans?

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Anonymous #12 11h

Manhood is not just being a rapist, I mean generally from the time that people are in kindergarten or younger people split off off into boys and girls socially and interact with each other differently with different social codes and whatever else. I'm not saying society's idea of manhood in the sense of machismo and misogyny or whatever, im asking if you don't care to be in community at all with men and you don't want to be perceived as a man then what calls you to identify as a man?

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Anonymous #12 11h

You as in general you, not you specifically

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Anonymous #6 11h

You can read the rest that I wrote, I'm not gonna retype it

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Anonymous #8 11h

I'm not calling out trans men who dress femininely I'm asking about people who identify as trans but don't care to transition at all in any form, physically or socially

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Anonymous OP 11h

And I’m asking why you care about what they do

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Anonymous #8 10h

I don't know how many times I can say I don't actually care what you do lol you can do whatever you want. If you wanna be called "he" I'm gonna call you "he". Burn me at the stake if wanting to know what's going on is such a crime

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Anonymous #8 10h

And again this whole paragraph is just about how they present and ignoring the whole "doesn't care to identify with or be in community with or understand the experience of men" aspect.

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Anonymous OP 10h

Simplest answer I have for you: If you don’t know what’s going on, maybe they don’t either. People have their own ways of identifying with gender, it’s not always gonna be obvious to you. I can personally say that I hyperfeminized myself before I came out as trans, but even during that time, I didn’t feel comfortable being referred to as a woman. I just wanted to be accepted by the people who previously knew me as a girl, every step I made towards “masculinity” was a risk to my support system.

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Anonymous OP 10h

I am a man because if I were to call myself anything else, I wouldn’t want to live. I wouldn’t want to date anyone who wouldn’t call me their boyfriend, I wouldn’t want to have friends if none of them could know I’m a man. Calling myself a woman or any other gender would lead to me being a complete antisocial shut-in, or dead. (1/2)

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Anonymous #12 10h

Being a man brings me joy, when my boyfriend tells me he needs his strong man to help him, when my friends casually call me brother or man or king, when I look into the mirror and remind myself I am a man. It’s a happiness that I would never give up now that I’ve found it.

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Anonymous OP 10h

I ignored it bc I didn’t think it would need an explanation 😭 first two I’ve never heard of and if they do exist they’re a very small minority that are not worth getting worked up about, and third “the experience of men” I’m gonna be so honest it sounds like when you say “men” you only mean cis men. Trans men’s experiences are men’s experiences, I don’t care how they present or are viewed by society, so they can’t NOT have the experience of men

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Anonymous #12 9h

I don't only mean cis men, I mean men. And if you're ignoring it then nothing you're saying is relevant because I'm not just talking about feminine trans men in general. Glad we could clear this up!

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Anonymous #12 9h

Also wdym trans men "can NOT have the experience of men"? Is your implication than a trans man will never be a man?

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Anonymous #12 9h

"Big strong man" and being called brother by your friend and looking in the mirror and seeing a man are all things that make sense as to why you would identify as a man. But once again, none of that applies to the people I'm talking about in this post so this grand monologue is only furthering the point I'm making lol if a person doesn't care about any of that or anything else that men would care about, what makes them want to identify as a man?

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Anonymous OP 9h

The implication is that trans men often do not grow up being socialized as a man, perceived as a man, etc. Yes, they do lack a major part of being raised as a man, and that’s a common point of dysphoria with trans men. It absolutely changes how you interact with other men even after you come out. Shocker, trans men don’t always have the same experiences as cis men

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Anonymous #8 9h

That's literally obvious. The people I'm talking about *don't care to have missed out on that experience and do t care that they are not perceived as a man and don't care that they weren't socialized as men and don't care that they don't fit in with men*. Like if you care that you weren't raised as a man and you would like to be in community with men and are dysphoric about the fact that you lack in those two areas, then yes it is obvious and understandable that you identify as a trans man. I

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Anonymous OP 9h

Oh my god you are literally impossible to have this conversation with, goodbye

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Anonymous OP 9h

You misread it, I said “can’t not,” aka “cannot not”

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Anonymous OP 6h

Bro atp just accept you won’t get it. No one has the crayons here to keep explaining this to you

6