Anonymous #3 17w

I’m totally fine with women (lesbian or not) in most gay bars. I have seen women in like sex bars and stuff, and I won’t lie, lesbian or no, I don’t loveee that. Like it doesn’t make sense at all to me why they would come if not to see how fReAkY gay men are. But regular gay bars, sure knock yourself out

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Anonymous OP 17w

That does make sense! I’ll be so fr I’ve never been in these spaces, and I definitely think it’s because #1 I turn 21 Monday, and #2 I don’t really want to be in a kink space with a bunch of men and. Me? I do think the spaces around me are more general fetish nights and not GAY BAR fetish nights, so my perspective is a little warped. I appreciate the answer and it makes a lot of sense :)

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Anonymous #3 17w

Ofc!! (Happy early bday!!)

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Anonymous OP 17w

Thank you!!! It’s been so nice to talk to someone and actually understand each other and be able to understand things more :)

4

I'm pointing out that gay bars are already by default for gay men. The invasion of women who are being creepy is gross (and they should be kicked out?). And those women are usually not lesbians? And to try to police who counts as a man or who deserves to be there really won't end well. People should fall in line with the behavioral expectations of gay bars, and when they don't, they should be appropriately removed.

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Anonymous #5 17w

See my previous comments about women in gay bars

0

Anonymous #5 17w

My point is, this seems to be saying "There are creepy straight women watching gay men in gay bars, so we should not allow lesbians in either" and that's dumb, ESPECIALLY when there are basically zero lesbian bars in most places

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Anonymous OP 17w

Yeah, you went from "women are allowed as long as they aren't gawking" to "I don't understand why lesbians would go to gay sex bars" but the answer is right there: lesbians typically don't have their own space, and typically aren't gawking. Your original post says, essentially, that lesbians should be excluded from gay bars

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Anonymous #5 17w

I’ve already talked about lesbians in another comment thread but to summarize - gay bars, fine, whatever. Gay SEX bars, still super weird to me

-1

Anonymous #5 17w

I’m saying that yes, all women should somewhat be excluded from gay sex bars. That should be a place reserved for men. I don’t see that as particularly harmful to lesbians - I see it as protective for them. If there was a lesbian sex bar, surely you wouldn’t want men there?

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Anonymous OP 17w

*protective for men

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Anonymous OP 17w

I mean, there AREN'T any sex bars for lesbians. There aren’t even regular bars for lesbians. There are literally (according to google, as of 2024) <40 lesbian bars in the US. I personally don't go to sex bars, and yeah I would definitely not want people looking at me, but I’m not sure if you can assume other LGBTQ+ people aren’t also there to have sex/party? I still think the folks staring/behaving inappropriately should get kicked, & gender policing shouldn't happen

1

Anonymous OP 17w

Other than being uncomfortable, is there a repeated pattern of women's (or another group of people's) behaviors in these spaces being dangerous or threatening? Because if not, there's (imo) no good reason to change the rules to prohibit a certain class of folks from entering. These are often also the only spaces where all LGBTQ+ folks are safe, and to deny them safety for your comfort is not smth I can get behind. But all ppl should be told the rules, & be kicked if they break them

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Anonymous #5 17w

I’m not gender policing, and I’m very aware and frustrated by the lack of lesbian bars. That doesn’t give women, lesbian or not, the right to go to a place specifically reserved for male sex and the male gay experience and take it over, so to speak. Go to a regular gay bar. Host your own sex party. It’s really, really weird to me if women want to go to a place that is cultivated for gay male sex. It ain’t policing, it’s protecting, and if the roles were reversed, this wouldn’t be controversial

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Anonymous #5 17w

Then go to a regular gay bar. But gay sex bars are not the place for non-men, period, full stop, end of story. European gay sex bars only allow and it isn’t controversial. Gay sex bars are NOT the only spaces where LGBTQ+ folks are safe. Gay bars are. Gay sex bars for the places for gay men to explore their sexuality.

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Anonymous OP 17w

Like what if I, as a cis man, regardless of if I’m gay, decided to enter like, an all female college dorm, or a women-only domestic abuse/sexual violence clinic? Those don’t exist for men to nearly the same scale. Would that make it okay? I would reckon that the answer is absolutely not, and I don’t see an issue with that.

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Anonymous #5 17w

All this is to say, I’m a big proponent of women-only spaces and lesbian-only spaces, because it is protective and encouraging of said group. Give the same courtesy to gay men, please

-1

Anonymous OP 17w

European bars also have a maximum number of poc that they'll let in, which is equally uncontroversial. "Gay" is an umbrella term after the AIDS crisis for a reason, and while a lot of these bars are dominated by cis white gay men, that doesn't mean that's a good thing? Reframing these spaces to have always been made in your image is not protective of what you want it to be protective of

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Anonymous #5 17w

Uhh… 1) source for that European bars fact pretty please. 2) no, gay sex bars are SPECIFICALLY for gay men, period end of story. 3) you didn’t respond to any of my other points. 4) why do you want to be in places where gay men have sex so badly?

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Anonymous OP 17w

https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/denmark-non-whites-shouldn-t-exceed-30-of-any-neighbourhood-45125 2) gay sex bars exist because gay ppl weren’t able to safely exist in cishet places. That's not unique to gay men. 3) you didn't either, so I figured I could also be choosy. But I'm happy to explain to you why women's shelters exist. 4) Look back to where I say I don't go to gay sex bars. I am, coincidentally, a gay man myself. I'm also already in a relationship.

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Anonymous #5 17w

Europe isn’t at all a monolith, was part of my point. Within Denmark, that isn’t a controversial law. (Unfortunately I have visited and talked to locals about it, in pseudo-Danish - I speak enough Norwegian to get by. Norway isn't great either on the racism front, before you ask.) And, as we should all know, something being uncontroversial within the space it's enacted in is not a good test for whether or not the thing itself is good.

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Anonymous #5 17w

You seem to frankly be the only person on this whole post to see the idea of “don’t fetishize gay men” as a controversial opinion. Why do women want to invade spaces prioritized for gay male sex? And why do you even care if it doesn’t affect you? You’re advocating for an invisible devil

-1

Anonymous #5 17w

Also I don’t think that a country with “the most draconian immigration policies in Europe” is akin to a nightclub prioritizing a safe space for men

1

Anonymous #5 17w

Also lol what points have I missed from you precisely? Don’t get into semantics with this and obfuscate my points

1

Anonymous OP 17w

Because your post is about disallowing people you see as undeserving. Why do you see the presence of women as inherently invasive and fetishistic, when you haven’t even acknowledged other queer people who want to have access to sexual spaces themselves? Why do you disagree that people should be removed based on behavior, instead of identity? Your conclusion is to exclude a different marginalized group, which is the same reasoning str8 people use to exclude queer people from everyday spaces

1

Anonymous #5 17w

There’s a fine line between exclusion and protection, it seems. And I value the protection, safety, and comfort of gay men over the chance for women to… be in the same place as gay men having sex. If I went to a lesbian bar (I KNOW that there are very few, I live in a city with a fair few however) that would be odd at the very least. That ain’t discrimination or exclusion.

1

Anonymous #5 17w

“The presence of women as inherently invasive and fetishistic” explain to me like I’m five how else I should take women being in a place reserved for male gay sex. It makes gay men uncomfortable.

1

Anonymous OP 17w

You've missed what I've said from the beginning about punishing lesbians for something that lesbians don't do. You haven't acknowledged the difference btwn comfort and safety, and what "gender policing" is going to exclude trans and intersex people from gay spaces when they should be included. You've also missed the part where gay men aren’t uniquely underpivileged in the LGBT+ community. (That's actually everyone that you want to exclude, councidentally)

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Anonymous #5 17w

I fear I’ve referenced most of what you said in previous comments, but to summarize: punishing lesbians. Lesbians can absolutely be in regular gay bars. It isn’t “punishing” anyone to ask for spaces reserved for gay male sex to be catered to gay males. Safety vs comfort: comfort, to me, is very similar to safety. I’ve been groped - that’s uncomfy but I’ve stayed safe. Soo. Trans people: trans men are men. I’ve always stated this. Gay men aren’t underprivileged: I’m aware. Doesn’t mean that (1/2)

-1

Anonymous OP 17w

Your argument here is circular, because you're starting with the assumption that these spaces are only for gay "males". I am informing you that this idea is flawed. Your reasoning is that "it makes me uncomfortable when other people fetishize me" and then you claim it’s all women doing that, and then say that your comfort is both equivalent to your safety & more important than the safety of more marginalized LGBTQ+ people. I reject those ideas.

1

Anonymous OP 17w

Doesn’t mean that we should take away spaces reserved for gay males and the gay male experience. I genuinely don’t see how you are advocating for that instead of, idk, building more inclusive sex bars and lesbian sex bars. We don’t need to take one group’s comfort away. We can just expand

0

Anonymous #5 17w

ok explain how non-men going to a gay sex club catered towards men is critical for LGBTQ+ safety (holy Christ this is chronically online)

1

Anonymous OP 17w

Omg I agree! We can just expand what we already have, which is gay sex bars, and make them inclusive to other LGBT+ people so that we can all have happy gay sex with each other!

1

Anonymous #5 17w

No we build more 😭 what if I advocated we tear down women’s only dorms to build gender inclusive dorms

1

Anonymous OP 17w

Do you actually want me to explain to you why women's dorms exist? (I do wish we could do that btw! Although actually it would be a shame to tear them down, a simple rebranding would do)

3

Anonymous #5 17w

Mama I understand why. Why don’t you understand that it’s the same thing for gay sex bars? Explain to me why there cannot be spaces specifically reserved for men? Ignore the chronically online bs, ignore the broad fact of the patriarchy, and explain to me on an individual basis why I cannot have a space for people who look like me. Because that’s what I want, and it’s what you’re advocating against, and I truly don’t understand. And also the answer is still “build more” and not “take away”

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Anonymous #5 17w

I'm just going to leave you with a premise & question & not engage further. These spaces were made to give gay people a safe place to have gay sex, because other spaces rejected gay men. Yay gay sex! Why is the safety and protection of these spaces predicated on the exclusion of non-gay-men having sex, when gay sex clubs wouldn't exist at all if gay men had just been (safely) allowed in all sex clubs in the first place?

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Anonymous #5 17w

You aren’t gonna respond bc you don’t have a good response. But okay.

2

Anonymous #5 17w

You’re engaging in hypotheticals and theoretical. I’m engaging with the fact that the presence of women in male sex clubs makes said men uncomfortable.

1

Anonymous OP 17w

Actually nope I cannot leave the "I want spaces for people who look like me" alone because THAT is a chronically online take. If you're white, why not join the KKK? You get to be with people who look like you! That’s what you want, right? (/s) Diversity is the name of the game in queerness. If you are only surrounded by people who look like you, you'll do what Denmark does! Which is distrust everyone who doesn't look like you. Idk how to explain to you that that's bad

1

Anonymous #5 17w

You’re seriously comparing me to the KKK bc I want a safe space for people who look like me? Like? Really? You really wanna do that? Holy chronically online

1

Anonymous #5 17w

Yes I agree diversity is good!! But again why can’t there be ONE space for gay men to like… be?

0

Anonymous OP 17w

I hope you realize that the KKK wants the same thing as you! A space where they are all safe with people who look like them! Because they feel inherently unsafe around people who aren’t white! Because they conflate safety with comfort! I’m using an extreme example so you might have the opportunity to think to yourself "wow, I sound like a KKK member rn? Maybe I should think about that..." instead of going "wow all these meanies are comparing me to the KKK they're so chronically online"

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Anonymous OP 17w

If diversity is good, why don't you want it in your spaces?

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Anonymous #5 17w

Jesus fucking Christ dude. Just like… Jesus fucking Christ.

0

Anonymous #5 17w

SAFE spaces. SAFE. Not just regular spaces. I have consistently said everyone is welcome in regular gay bars. You’re being intentionally frustrating at this point

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Anonymous #5 17w

“You’re the KKK” ok, you want to like… idk, remove all women-specific spaces and bulldoze HBCUs. Like HUH

2

Anonymous OP 17w

Why do you think that women are inherently dangerous to you? Why do you specifically seem to think that women are dangerous to you? Have you considered that lesbian bars exist in the first place specifically because gay men exclude lesbians from all their spaces, because they don't like them? And maybe that's a representation of the privilege afforded to each group? And again: why do you seem to think lesbians wouldn't go to dark rooms for sex just like you?

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Anonymous #5 17w

Wow ok so: 1.) I don’t think women are inherently dangerous. I do think that them being in a place reserved for gay men is a bit of an invasion. 2.) yes I have actually. Hence why I’m advocating that everyone be allowed in general gay bars. You conveniently miss this point. 3.) I do think lesbians should have and go to dark rooms. Just not dark rooms meant for gay men 💀

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Anonymous OP 17w

Why do you think gay men need a space that is free of people who are marginalized for the exact same reason? Do you not see at all how this is the exact same logic to exclude nonwhite gay men?

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Anonymous OP 17w

What do you think is structurally different about a dark room for gay men vs a dark room for lesbians vs a dark room for anyone?

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Anonymous #5 17w

One is for men who like men. One is for women who like women. One is for everyone. Like……….. what’s the difference between a lesbian bar and an everyone bar?

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Anonymous #5 17w

Ok man you’re trying real hard but you’re arguing in bad faith now

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Anonymous OP 17w

"I believe everyone should have access to education. Just not education meant for me, a cis straight white man" (<-- the invention of fraternities, basically) do you see why that's a problem? Do you see how separating spaces immediately becomes privileging certain groups over others in access and quality? Why are you so interested in reperpetuating the same bigotry that requires separate gay spaces in the first place? Does it make you feel powerful?

1

Anonymous #5 17w

Mate I just want a place where I can know no one’s gawking, which whether you like it or not, is how men feel perceived when women enter gay sex spaces. You don’t go to them so you do not know. Like, stop trying to twist my words and just realize I want people to be comfortable. Education and sex spaces are not at all comparable

-1

Anonymous OP 17w

If you don’t want people to be gawking, get a private room. Or if someone's gawking, ask security for them to get kicked out. Idk why it’s harder to do either of those things than it is to decide that women don't get to be in spaces, at the cost of every gnc person ever

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Anonymous OP 17w

So, you do understand my education example, but somehow this is different, got it. Hope you have a good life, and I hope you start to realize what I'm talking about when the US (you seem American, sorry to assume) inevitably starts separating spaces even more between gay men & cishet people. But honestly, I hope you never realize that way because plenty of people who do get it will be caught in the crossfire in the meantime, and their well-being isn’t worth your understanding

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Anonymous #5 17w

Or… and here’s a crazy idea… foster safe spaces where no one feels gawked at. Wait omg that’s exactly what I’m proposing 🙄

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Anonymous #5 17w

I’m Irish actually :3. Also frankly, you’re the one getting destroyed in ratios and comments, not muah.

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Anonymous #5 17w

Also everyone deserves and needs education to flourish. People don’t need to go to gay sex bars

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Anonymous OP 17w

My bad Irish dude 🫡 Do you think lesbians are gawking at gay men in gay sex clubs? And that other gay men aren't? Because the solution you proposed doesn’t seem to acknowledge other experiences with that. Which is fundamentally my issue

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Anonymous #5 17w

There’s a clear difference between people of your own sexuality being interested in you and people who aren’t attracted to you being obsessed with the show

0