Anonymous #1 1d

Also acting as if that’s the only reason AI is a growing problem

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Anonymous OP 1d

Totally. They like to hone in on one specific concern at a a time while completely ignoring the rest of the compounding problems of AI

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

Ok cool cool missing my point. Just because there is something worse, which btw WE KNOW ITS WORSE, doesn’t mean we’re gonna stop trying to push for data centers to be stopped.

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

ai could be useful. if our government wasn’t owned by capitalists, ai could be used to replace pesticides and herbicides, curbing another large source of the biodiversity loss incurred in modern agricultural practices. animal agriculture must be reduced though, we risk collapsing much of our food system if we continue current practices

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

You’re not wrong but people do eat animals. Always have too. Nobody needs AI. The land use is definitely a problem but it’s better than bulldozing the land for a giant concrete block

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Anonymous OP 1d

is someone saying stop?

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

Ok, but it’s not useful is it. You’re bringing up the problems of B at a protest about A.

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Anonymous #1 1d

people who have a material relation with the animals they keep may continue to eat them. you and i, without dietary restrictions compelling us to eat meat, can go without. you choose not to

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Anonymous #1 1d

His statement doesn’t mean people won’t eat animals, in fact there are plenty of sustainable methods of meat farming, but we would need to reduce the amount of it and honestly considering how much is wasted I don’t think anything he said is wrong. But he’s missing the point

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Anonymous OP 1d

they’re the same problem, pushed forward by the same planners. the same lot investing in commercial ag operations, are also investing in fossil fuels, and ai data center production. capitalism is at the core, animal agriculture as a symptom is currently worse than ai. what OOP is trying to convey is that it is easier for y’all to oppose ai bc it requires minimum lifestyle change. you have #1 trying to soft launch their excuse as to why they won’t change in this thread lol

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

I just feel it’s kinda changing the message? Like you’re not wrong the beef industry is completely unsustainable and frankly just not even worth the trouble, but data centers are becoming a RAPIDLY GROWING problem that we can stop NOW with not too much effort, it’s about picking battles

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

It’s also easier to oppose because, unlike the beef industry, it’s a problem that can actually be solved within our lifetime. We both agree the beef industry needs to be reduced in size and agriculture made sustainable but while I know this sounds like quitters talk that’s a BIG project, we need to get the small projects so we can build uk to the big ones rather than fruitlessly claw at the big ones

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Anonymous OP 1d

the message needs to be changed. it needs to center around those who actually control our economic planning: capitalists. they are at the core of the climate crisis. they are the ones propping up fossil fuels, they finance data center expansion, and they own the land that grows our food. until the banks and capitalists are at the center of the discussion, all of this continues

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

You and I understand and agree that’s the big issue, but I’m trying to think about this in a manner that can actually get some progress instead of just preaching about it on a soap box. Data centers would be a good starting point BECAUSE they’re easy to solve and don’t change lifestyles much. Data centers have shown to the masses, not just fringe thinkers like us, that the elite will trample on rights to get their way.

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

Humans have been eating meat for millions of years. While possible and probably healthier, eating meat is completely natural. Human nature can’t just be unwound. We need more sustainable practices for sure but meat will ALWAYS be a normal part of a human diet for the vast majority of the world

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Anonymous #1 1d

Why are you two talking about eating meat like that’s the problem? You do realize meat used to be a rare luxury until like very recently? Also “reducing meat consumption” is not the same as not eating meat at all.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Yes exactly… we have had mass AI for like 3-4 years. Everyone can live without bulldozing a bunch of natural land for data centers

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Anonymous #1 1d

human ‘nature’ is not real, and if it was real, it certainly would not be static. while humans have possessed the ability to eat meat for millions of years, humans have opted not to for many years also. today, the choice to eat meat is largely behavioral, not rooted in any material practice or relationship. you go to the grocery store to purchase chicken slaughtered by a machine operated by a worker in a factory. you do not hunt or raise your meals

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Anonymous OP 1d

Trying to meet in the middle. Being more mad about meat than data centers makes absolutely zero sense because meat is human nature and data centers are brand new and completely unnecessary to human wellbeing

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

Not believing in ‘human nature’ is just dumb. Do you not believe in evolution?

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Anonymous OP 1d

i agree with what you’re saying, and i suppose i never disagreed with your post either. you’re saying to oppose both. my issue is #1 assuming that the first post is somehow pro-ai because it pointed out a greater source of emissions

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Anonymous #1 1d

evidently you don’t if you believe in some universal human nature

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Anonymous #1 1d

did all of the other human species share in this ‘human nature’ you speak of? or just us sapiens?

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

Actually I’ve been kinda avoiding bringing up chicken because there are a lot of sustainable ways to raise chicken but idk how much the chicken industry has affected us, you got any data on that? I know beef is destructive but chickens are smaller and don’t need as much space or food.

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Anonymous OP 1d

i have chickens

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Anonymous OP 1d

5 hens. we don’t eat them, we’re not barbarians. we eat their eggs though, so do the snakes sometimes

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

Eating chicken doesn’t make you a barbarian, in fact it would probably make you a Roman since the tribal “barbarians” didn’t have as much access to meat. My question is more on chicken farms like I’m doing my own research but I’ve always been on the team of “eat more chicken” since it’s better for sustainability.

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Anonymous OP 1d

but no, idk much about the impacts of commercial chicken operations other than it’s the same factory farming practices that pervade every industry under capitalism. no respect for the human being worked or the animal being slaughtered. i know it uses much less land than cattle and lamb though. those are the primary two land destroyers

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

There is.. SOME respect, mass stunning via electrified water. So the automatic throat slitter is hardly noticed. That said you can not make me feel bad about chickens cause I know if those guys were any bigger they would 100% eat us.

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

If that wasn’t their intent, then that’s fine. But I’m looking at their comments too and I’m not sure it is. Plus I have seen a lot of pro ai people use arguments like “you know Google and YouTube has way more water than ai” when the point isn’t just about the water it’s the fact that these unregulated and costly data centers are popping up like weeds faster than we as a people can act on them!

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Anonymous _orangutan 1d

Yes they did. For about 2 million years before Homo Sapiens were even a species

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Anonymous #1 1d

We didn’t even have agriculture for most of that.. also again I really want to heavily emphasize ORANGUTAN IS NOT SAYING YOU CANT EAT MEAT. But the beef industry is too unsustainable as it is, so maybe make steak night once a month instead of once a week and eat more veggies and alternative protein sources. Also support local farmers instead of buying from larger brands

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Anonymous OP 1d

The founding of agriculture went hand in hand with the cultivation of livestock. Orangutan also quite literally said to not eat meat. I agree the beef industry is unsustainable but so is the entire American farming industry. We produce far more than necessary in general. That overproduction is subsidized by the government and/or sent to feed livestock. It’s a much more complex issue than ‘don’t eat as much meat.’ AI data centers aren’t. We can’t live without food, we can live without AI

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Anonymous #1 1d

you’re right. we need to produce less meat. eating less meat isn’t enough. this i why animal agriculture must be curbed at the point of production. we can live without meat an ai, something you seem to ignore

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