Anonymous #3 16w

A brain dead person can have a life an animal can have a life. We don’t just value life inherently.

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Anonymous blue__wave 16w

i can at least understand your argument then because you’re not trying to play in the middle. you don’t value life, so it makes sense that killing a baby wouldnt bother you. thats still absolutely insane work, but hey at least your honest

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Anonymous #3 16w

Well no one just inherently values life by itself we unplug people who are brain dead in fact we consider them dead. We often times kill people when they can’t engage with society (death penalty) I think I have a super common opinion it’s not “insane work”.

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Anonymous #3 16w

And I still value life to some extent everyone who I value is alive I just think it’s one necessary part that gives people value, but if you have it by itself no one cares.

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Anonymous blue__wave 16w

no i value life, especially human life. to me, unplugging someone is the very last option when everything else has been exhausted. there is nothing more we can do to make them better/functional. for a baby in the womb, it’s different. if the baby is aborted, you have not exhausted every option to make them functional. i’m also anti death penalty so that’s a non starter. it’s not as common as you might think.

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Anonymous #4 16w

god forbid i enjoy having sex because it feels good, i’m sorry nobody wants to fuck you

-1

Anonymous #3 16w

It is as common as a think bc it’s legal in some places here so obviously people share in that opinion. Bc with the fetus there’s nothing to exhaust bc depending on how far along the fetus is you can’t make it conscious. People will do everything to can make someone conscious bc there was already someone there with value that’s not the case with a fetus.

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Anonymous #3 16w

To make*

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Anonymous #5 16w

God forbid you do something that has consequences and have to face them!

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Anonymous #6 16w

Well if you abort that shit or wear a condom then you don’t

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Anonymous #6 16w

i drive a car every single day not expecting to get into a body paralyzing accident

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Anonymous blue__wave 16w

you may be right, it may be more common than i think. however, historically, there have been many instances when there’s been a common, shared opinion and they have been wrong. just because it’s common does not mean it’s inherently right. keeping the baby in the womb is an option that can help the baby make it to functionality. there is value in the baby because it is a human life, not because it was already someone, but because they already are someone.

0

Anonymous #5 16w

To pretend that has any correlation is insane! A more accurate version is driving full speed in the opposite direction lane and getting and someone hits you!

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Anonymous #6 16w

having an abortion is taking care of those consequences! yay!

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Anonymous #6 16w

having sex with protection is equivalent to driving with a seatbelt. if i get pregnant or i get into a car accident, i hope to have the appropriate healthcare available. even in your situation, i’d be taken to the hospital and treated. do you think we should we stop treating people who have lung cancer?

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Anonymous #3 16w

I’m cool with it.

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Anonymous #6 16w

I think the point everyone is making that’s going over your head is just bc car accidents happen that doesn’t mean people deserve it. Just like sex has a risk people shouldn’t be forced to have a child when abortion is available. Just like people shouldn’t be forced to die from car wrecks. We’re talking about if abortion is bad or good.

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Anonymous #6 16w

Both seat belts and abortion reduce the risks if that helps the analogy.

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Anonymous #3 16w

Do you think we should keep brain dead people alive with machines?

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Anonymous blue__wave 16w

back to this? if there are other options that we can explore that could give them a possibility and the doctors need some time (figuring out options, letting any swelling go down, let the body rest, etc.) then absolutely keep them alive with machines. if the drs think they have a chance of waking up and they just need more time, then yes. however, like i said before, if we, meaning the family and drs, have exhausted all options and there is absolutely no way they will wake up, then it is time

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Anonymous #3 16w

you have not exhausted all options for the baby when you actively kill it

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Anonymous #3 16w

Yes this again bc you can’t answer it in a coherent way, so I’m not talking what society values I’m talking about what you value. You don’t care about an arbitrary heart beat you care about consciousness we can’t make a person conscious then we can kill it by your own belief. We can’t make every fetus conscious. Notice how you don’t care about the person being alive you care about them waking up “if the drs think they have a chance of waking up” you care more about the person being wake then

2

Anonymous #3 16w

Alive.

3

Anonymous blue__wave 16w

okay, let me put it in the simplest terms i can. chance of them waking up/being able to be alive without the machines = keep them on machines absolutely no chance = say goodbye the machines are what keeps them alive, not themselves. consciousness does not always mean the difference between alive and dead, i’m saying wake up because that’s the circumstance that we’re discussing. i might just not be understanding your point, but it seems like an odd point to make

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Anonymous #3 16w

I understand your take my point is your contradicting yourself “no I value life” “chance of them waking up/being able to be alive without the machines = keep them alive absolutely no chance = say goodbye”. My entire point is that you value consciousness over being alive which you’re explicitly stating. Idk what your what but if you’re saying if something isn’t conscious than it isn’t alive but that hurts your point.

1

Anonymous #3 16w

Idk what your saying at the end*

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Anonymous blue__wave 16w

consciousness does not always mean the difference between alive and dead, but in this circumstance (the patient on the machines) it is the easiest way to define it. doctors work everyday to keep people alive and intervene in every way they can, but there always comes a time where there is nothing else they can do. at that point, that is when there is no longer a life. life begins at conception. it has to end at some point. i never stated that consciousness is more valued than life, because that

-1

Anonymous #3 16w

is just a bad take, like you said. the only reason i talked consciousness is because we were talking about patients that are living off machines.

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Anonymous #3 16w

Ok I’m just trying to understand our disagree your saying if someone is unable to be made conscious again then they’re dead correct? I’m just trying to understand what you mean when you say “consciousness does not always mean the difference between alive or dead”. Like if someone is unconscious like they’re sleeping then obviously they aren’t dead, but if they can’t be awaken then they’re dead correct?

1

Anonymous blue__wave 16w

no, life is much more than just consciousness, however, it is one of the most important parts of being alive. consciousness is also much more than just being awake or asleep, and there are many studies going on today trying to figure out consciousness as well.

1

Anonymous #3 16w

you’re trying to get me to say that consciousness is the only way someone is alive, and then you’ll say that a baby is not conscious in the womb. there have been many studies that have shown that there is a level of awareness in the womb

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Anonymous #3 16w

i’m interested to know what you define as alive and dead

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Anonymous #3 16w

Ok you’re not gonna answer lol. You implied that not being conscious could be the difference between being dead or alive, or do you just mean dead things aren’t conscious?

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Anonymous #3 16w

If you truly cared about human life and had empathy youd know that forcing a mother into motherhood when she CANNOT and does not want to take care of a child is catastrophic to the mothers mental health, financial life, and every other aspect of her life AND the child life, future mental health, and how catastrophic banning abortions nation wide could be to future generations. Critical thinking PLEASE! you don’t care about life, you care about forcing women into horrible life circumstances

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Anonymous blue__wave 16w

i did answer? life is so much more than consciousness, however, it is one of the most important parts of being alive.

1

Anonymous sage.tiger 16w

the mother can give the child to a family wanting to adopt. there is a miles long waiting list of families waiting to adopt a baby. many of these families will also financially help the mother throughout the pregnancy. there is no reason to kill a baby, under any circumstance.

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Anonymous #6 16w

So no. Nope. Sex does not equate to driving full speed down the wrong way and somehow missing every care and pregnancy is then you hit a car. Sex is normal safe driving because it’s a biological drive and it’s literally what bonds two people together. Say your pro celibacy then we’ll talk.

1

Anonymous #3 16w

As someone who’s been adopted, no! I have horrible mental health because of the trauma I went through at a young age. I never even touched adoption facilities or foster homes, I was adopted within my family and I still have debilitating symptoms because of that. Adoption facilities are shit and will traumatize them even fucking more and some people don’t want their literally DNA out there without them. I do not want little me out there suffering because “I abandoned them” my bpd is Shit because

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Anonymous sage.tiger 16w

I experienced the pain of being abandoned by my own mother because I had to figure out why at such a young age like most people who are adopted do. So adoption causes just as much hurt if not more than forcing a woman into woman hood. Fuck no and fuck you.

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Anonymous #3 16w

That’s not my question, all I’m asking is what do you mean when you say “consciousness does not always mean the difference between alive and dead” I’m not asking about studies or how important it is or whatever.

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Anonymous sage.tiger 16w

okay, so it makes sense why you’re coming at this issue with so much emotion. i am incredibly sorry that you have had to go through those experiences. however, just because you had traumatic experiences because of adoption does not mean it is a bad thing. there is also an overwhelming amount of great experiences from kids who were adopted. i hope that you can get the mental health help that you deserve.

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Anonymous #3 16w

I never said there was no consciousness in the womb. Stop trying to head off my argument and just answer.

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Anonymous blue__wave 16w

that’s exactly what i mean. i’m sorry i don’t know how else to break it down.

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Anonymous #3 16w

I can define being alive but I don’t think it’s super relevant to the convo I think a fetus is alive I think cells are alive.

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Anonymous #3 16w

So what you meant when you said “consciousness does not always mean the difference between alive and dead” you were trying to say “life is more than being conscious and being conscious is one of the most important parts to being alive”? It’s fine if you mistyped or you didn’t mean anything by it but that doesn’t make sense. The point that I was gonna make is that if not being able to wake up = dead then a fetus is dead by your def (outside of when it is conscious after 20 something weeks).

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Anonymous #11 16w

It isn’t your child until it is born.

3

Anonymous #10 16w

Based

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Anonymous #8 16w

Number 8’s argument is that personhood is granted at fertilization and number 11’s is that personhood is granted at birth. With personhood, comes the responsibility to protect that “person” So what defines the line between “alive” and “person”, and why? I’d argue that personhood is a social construct, so there is no objectively correct answer.

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Anonymous #10 16w

I am #8. That isn’t my argument at all. Lmfao

1