Anonymous #1 8w

Please don’t tell me you genuinely believe that China and Russia are anti-imperialist. There’s no excuse for that level of ignorance, literally none at all.

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Anonymous OP 8w

They’re the main two countries resisting the US ‘s global empire. Russia in particular may not be ideologically anti imperialist but it’s objectively anti imperialist in the current moment

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Anonymous #1 8w

Just because one country is resisting another nations imperial ambitions that doesn’t inherently make them anti-imperialist. By that same vein of logic would you then consider the German empire, the Japanese empire, the Italian empire, and Austria Hungary to be anti-imperialist?

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Anonymous cia.gov 8w

Like sure, they resisted the French empire, the British empire and the United States at one point, but that doesn’t make them not empires? Lmao

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Anonymous #1 8w

>resists imperialism by engaging in imperialism Are you fucking stupid or just regular stupid?

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Anonymous #1 8w

This will serve as a teaching moment for you. We’ll start with Russia, which under Vladimir Putin is the literal definition of an imperialist state, acting to invade and occupy sovereign nations, illegally annex territory, exploit and control the supply of natural resources, overthrow governments, and control or influence the democratic processes of their adversaries. Russian imperialism is seen in Georgia, Moldova, Armenia & Azerbaijan, Syria, all throughout Africa, and of course in Ukraine.

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Anonymous #1 8w

Let’s start with Ukraine. Tell me, in your understanding, how you see Russia’s invasion and occupation of a sovereign nation, the LITERAL DEFINITION of imperialism, as being “not imperialist”

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Anonymous OP 8w

I expected this and it’s because we’re not operating on a shared definition of imperialism. I find the most useful definition of imperialism to be the one outlined by Lenin, which is as a stage of capitalism defined by exporting capital to less developed nations. Russia isn’t even a net exporter of capital. Furthermore, Russia’s invasion of Ukraine was a response to NATO encirclement aimed at restraining post Soviet Russia’s trade relations with Europe

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Anonymous #1 8w

Good, I also expected the NATO argument. NATO expansion occurred as a response to Russian aggression, with vulnerable countries, historically oppressed by Moscow, understandably turning to the alliance to protect their security. Russia has used “NATO expansion” as an excuse to justify their own imperialism, claiming that they’re threatened by the people that THEY have threatened. If I’m incorrect, then why did Poland/Baltics etc., join NATO instead of align with Russia?

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Anonymous #1 8w

There is a recognized consensus, even amongst former Soviet or Russian leaders, that Russia was never given promises about NATO expansion. Furthermore, sovereign nations are free to act however they see fit to protect their own security. All Russia has done, with their actions in Georgia, Moldova, Crimea, and the invasion of Ukraine, U.S. proven beyond any shred of a doubt that NATO expansion was indeed justified.

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Anonymous OP 8w

So now that we’ve disproven that point and recognized that Russia is acting as an imperialist power, where would you like to turn next?

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Anonymous #1 8w

This take is absolutely mindless. China is an authoritarian ethnostate 90% Han forcefully assimilating minorities and claiming land and ocean way beyond international law. Russia is an empire built off the genocide of steppe indigenous people and held together by a ruthless oligarchy. You can denounce American meddling without stanning other empires. Also btw read about African neocolonialism

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Anonymous #1 8w

And the true definition of imperialism, is acting to extend a nation’s power, wealth, and influence through territorial acquisition or some form of exerting control over other nations. The American invasion of Iraq was imperialism. The Russian invasion of Ukraine is imperialism. Chinese aggression towards Taiwan and the South China Sea is imperialism.

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Anonymous #1 8w

China and Russia are also very much capitalist. Africa is continuing to be robbed of its wealth by extractive Chinese state owned corporations

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Anonymous #5 8w

Okay, then share your opinion. Explain to us how Russia or China’s actions do not constitute imperialism. We can start with either one

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Anonymous #5 8w

Nobody’s going to make fun of you, we’re just giving you a chance to have your opinion heard

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Anonymous OP 8w

Well, first you have to define what you mean by “imperialism.” I would argue that China hasn’t engaged in military regime change like the US has an Iraq, Libya, or Afghanistan. There might be a conversation to be had about the belt and road initiative, but that’s more about economic integration than colonialism. A lot of countries are willingly engaging with China because they offered loans and infrastructure that the IMF wouldn’t.

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Anonymous #1 8w

Bro said he uses Lenin’s philosophy for imperialism but didn’t recognize the entire portion where Lenin talks about political power over sovereign nations

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Anonymous OP 8w

On Russia, there is a conversation to be about Ukraine, but I’m not just going to except US framing at face value because with NATO expansion and the 2014 maiden coup actually do explain why Russia is doing the things that it does lol I just think that if you’re in supportive, China or Russia, that doesn’t mean you support every action they take - just like if you support America, I’d hope you wouldn’t support every action they’ve taken

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Anonymous #5 8w

My definition of imperialism is down below in my response to #1 if you can see it, and under that definition China’s economically exploitative relations with African nations in particular, as well as Chinese aggression towards Taiwan and the territorial dispute in the South China Sea very clearly constitute an imperialist attempt to exert dominance over sovereign nations.

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Anonymous #5 8w

I just feel like if we’re gonna talk about authoritarianism China and Russia shouldn’t be the first examples win Israel, Saudi Arabia, and AMERICA are all right there

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Anonymous #5 8w

When israel*

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Anonymous #5 8w

I’ve also addressed Ukraine below, and that’s a blatantly obvious case of Russian imperialism which I find concerning that people don’t comprehend.

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Anonymous #5 8w

I’ve shown with my recognition of American imperialism that I’m perfectly able to hold my country accountable. The problem is that people like the ones I’m discussing will excuse any imperialism or atrocity, so long as it’s being done by a nation that’s opposed to the United States. What Russia is doing is so obviously imperialism that anyone can see it, there’s no debate on that. China is a more complex issue but they are in fact acting as an imperialist nation.

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Anonymous #5 8w

I guess the important question is “why is Russian and Chinese imperialism excused, and the suffering of people under their actions dismissed, solely because they as nations are American adversaries?”

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Anonymous #5 8w

I also want to be clear that you make good point and you’re clearly well-versed in this subject. I have no issue with you I just happen to disagree on certain points

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Anonymous OP 8w

I used text to speech because I was driving and the words came out so bad lmao Anyway, I think people are holding these sentiments, not necessarily because they excuse Russia in China, but because a lot of people are really tired of how current frameworks seem to only hold America’s enemies to account, and so if we’re *really* going to be anti-imperialist, the fact that America is one of the biggest imperial offenders needs to be addressed, as does the fact that only holding their enemies

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Anonymous #5 8w

accountable actually helps their imperial cause

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Anonymous #5 8w

I see your point, once again my problem is that when we flip that, and people are so laser focused on America and seeing anyone as fighting “American hegemony” as some heroic crusader, then we see that the violent aggression and brutal repression committed by nations like China and Russia are dismissed because “well what about America? They’re just murdering Ukrainians because NATO exists” and shit like that

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Anonymous #5 8w

IMF loans are predatory… with the B&R, China does literally the exact same thing. There’s also of course China’s behavior regarding Taiwan, or claims of owning the entire EEZ of basically all its neighbors in the South China Sea. China isn’t anti-imperialist with regards to the US, it’s a younger, competing imperial power. It uses less violent methods specifically because those allow it to present itself as an alternative to the US, and also because it simply doesn’t have the military capacity

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Anonymous #7 8w

If anything couldn’t we say that China is the older imperial power? Chinese imperialism was impacting Asia thousands of years before the United States was even a British colony, let alone a global superpower. But yeah I get if you’re just talking about the PRC

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Anonymous #7 8w

to do it yet. in particular the PLAN isn’t particularly good yet, but they’re rapidly building ships to try and contest maritime East Asia. If China had 7 aircraft carriers and the ships to protect them, they’d be doing exactly what America has been since WW2.

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Anonymous #1 8w

Russia is literally continuing an imperial aspiration that is older than the fucking United States as a nation. Russian Imperial revanchism became a driving motivator of the Soviet Union and later Russian Federation literally as soon those states formed. Why else would they be specifically trying to bring their former territories back under Russian cultural and political dominance.

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Anonymous OP 8w

Eh it’s kind of a poor argument because that’s not only a long time ago, but literally several different Chinese nations ago. The century+ before the fall of the Qing was spent as a largely isolationist country that was repeatedly getting raped and pillaged by European countries ever 20 years. I wouldn’t say there’s meaningful continuity from like the Ming or Yuan to the PRC other than being the same general civilization.

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Anonymous #7 8w

Totally get that, I do think that the perception from nations they’ve dominated would be different. In Vietnam for example, they see themselves as waging a centuries long battle against Chinese imperialism.

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Anonymous OP 8w

It’s sort of a matter of the more medieval form of imperialism vs the capitalist form of imperialism I guess. But you’re absolutely right about Vietnam, hell they fought a brief war in 1979, because Vietnam invaded the Chinese allied Khmer Rouge.

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Anonymous #5 8w

The infrastructure projects of B&R is to help facilitate the movement of natural resources from the interior of the continent to Chinese state corp. owned African ports. “Economic integration” is just neocolonialism for the raw materials to fuel the Chinese industrial machine. British did the same thing in India and Africa building up rail networks towards the ports to fuel their Industrial Revolution. Don’t even get me started on illicit Russian gold mining in the Sahel😐free Sudan🇸🇩

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Anonymous #5 8w

The US is backsliding into autocracy and its actions over the past decades should be heavily criticized but come on China and Russia are the OG textbook single party authoritarian states that ruthlessly crack down on dissent in a way we have never seen here. As fucked up as the American system is we have still had SOME choice in our governments. Otherwise it would not be possible for people with differing ideology like Zohran Mamdani to gain even basic relevancy in the political system.

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Anonymous #1 8w

Theyre resisting the US so that they themselves can fucking do it you dolt

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