Anonymous #4 3w

A fusion of Jewish and Hellenistic concepts which includes platonic and stoic

4

Anonymous #5 3w

larger Christianity has been responsible for some of the most vile and horrific practices throughout human history. It’s disingenuous for you to claim misled people when you believe a subsect of a religion that has over 45,000 denominations As recently as the 1800s christian’s in the United states argued for the right to own slaves, using verses like Exodus 21:4 where God explicitly condones the idea of owning children as property due to situations of indentured servitude from the parents.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

You seem to be under the misconception that the “good” tenants that christianity preaches are not exclusive to christianity nor did a lot of them even stem from the religion itself.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

We can go back centuries too by the way. The crusades, the countless genocides against native americans from christians who championed their religious values over the natives. Does that sound humane?

2

Anonymous OP 3w

I will reply more thoroughly in the morning. A lot of people have done a lot of terrible things, but the abuse of something does not negate its right use. Ancient paganism used to involve ritual human sacrifice, sometimes even eating children, but my post is specifically about how neo-paganism disavows those things. If the abuse of an ideological label negates its proper understanding then there simply isnt any large ideology in the world that isnt evil.

-1

Anonymous #5 3w

I noticed that you took the time to read but not to answer. An answer or acknowledgment by the way which talks about the importance of the claim of people being misled by religious or ideological beliefs, the application of values within religions, and the fact that christianity is not exclusive in these ideals.

6

Anonymous OP 3w

I can read much quicker than I can type on a phone. Additionally, it is late, and I want to have a well thought out and respectful conversation. Being tired does not help with that. Hope you sleep well, thank you for understanding!

-1

Anonymous #5 3w

bitch you typed three paragraphs to not answer and then say its too late, only to respond with another paragraph saying you cant type fast and its too late again

6

Anonymous #5 3w

I’ll be waiting!

1

Anonymous OP 3w

Good morning! It seems like while I was typing my first reply you added more as well, and I didnt see them until this morning. You seem to be bringing up two main points: 1: people using the name Christian have done evil things, seemingly as an argument that Christianity cannot claim to have moral teachings 2: there are teachings seen as moral that predate Christianity, and therefore Christianity has no exclusive claim on them. Are these understandings of your statements inaccurate?

1

Anonymous #5 3w

1. No 2. Yes!

1

Anonymous OP 3w

1: please correct where I am inaccurate 2: I agree that there are teachings that predate Christianity, however, the idea that all humans have inherent worth and an inherent connection to the divine first appears in ancient Yahwism, which is what developed Second Temple Judaism, and then into Christianity. Additionally the concept of universal divine love originated in Christianity, and is a central feature particularly of Unitarian Universalism.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

Additionally, neo-paganism is a movement that was created by people living in a culture saturated with Christian thought, values such as peace, mercy, and love. While they have rejected the Christ who instilled that in the culture, they still see the value in those things. This is what I am celebrating in the post, that rather than a reversion to valuing martial prowess, subjugation, and dominance, people are still seeking that which is good.

0

Anonymous #5 3w

1. Just that last sentence, it’s more so to contest the idea that christianity and its values are largely responsible for the morality among groups when things like that have occurred specifically due to christianity 2. So then inherent human value is not a christian exclusive value. Some of the religions you mentioned have that same value and you claim they’re “fundamentally” christian. Which you’re acknowledging isn’t true if you acknowledge that fact as well

1

Anonymous #5 3w

Value and peace are not “christian thoughts” You’d need to substantiate that they’re exclusively christian values and thoughts in order for the claim to be valid logically speaking.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

Neopaganism was created by reviving, re-creating, or inventing pre-Christian religions in the modern era, most notably through the Gardnerian Wicca movement founded in England in the 1950s. Its creation was also influenced by 19th and 20th-century social and philosophical movements and earlier esoteric orders, leading to various paths like Heathenry and Dianic Wicca

1

Anonymous OP 3w

Missed reply oops

1

Anonymous #5 3w

2b cont: when people tried to create or revive religions in the west they did it under influence of Christ’s teachings, as well as Christian ideas of the accessibility of the divine. They did not revive the true ancient religions, but a Christianized version.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

You claiming it without proof doesn’t mean much. You need to substantiate that they did it under influence of a singular religions teachings.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

It’s intellectually dishonest to claim something happened without substantial evidence to support that claim.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

1. I was contesting the claim that historically christianity has been used as a moral tool 2. Also untrue unless you have specific evidence to suggest that 3. Again, untrue without proof.

1

Anonymous OP 3w

So, on the idea that modern pagan practices are in line with morality developed under Christ’s teachings, I will start with Wicca. Though, I accept that like any group, it is not uniform, but there is a mainstream, and this is my focus. Additionally this is not scholarly research, but internet. However, if someone wanted to get into these practices they would be finding the same sources as me, so it seems reasonable for an anonymous yik yak discussion. According to Wicca sites.,.

2

Anonymous #5 3w

There is a “deep respect for nature” and a rule to “not use magic to do harm.” However, in literally every single ancient pagan tradition, harming people and animals with magic was a mainstream and accepted practice. The Egyptian rulers would use it to curse their political enemies to suffer terrible deaths, Harispicy was the wide spread magic practice of killing animals to read the future by their organs. A Roman history describes a witch’s workspace as “full of corpses, human and animal.,.

3

Anonymous #5 3w

With spikes of metal still covered in the flesh of crucifixion victims. Pulsating entrails of a recently killed animal.” As for harming humans, this excerpt shows the magic done just for a chariot race. All of these practices, and the moral underpinnings are FAR removed from mainstream wicca or neo-pagan practices.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

If we’re going to shift slightly to talking about practices then I can turn back to how it was a common practice for christian’s to slaughter and condemn those who questioned the church. We’re talking about the values and how they aren’t or are influenced directly from your religion, not the historic practices of each one otherwise you’d need to afford that paganism at its core doesn’t teach those values just like christianity might not but they became a common social practice

1

Anonymous OP 3w

Is your argument then that ancient pagan teachings line up with modern pagan ones, even though ancient pagan actions by the evidence I have given do not? If so, please provide your evidence of those teachings. For the teachings of Christianity I cite the account of Jesus’ teaching in the gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. I agree that people have not acted according to these. I ask for similar evidence for a misalignment between ancient pagan teaching and practice.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

I am specifically contesting the claim that christianity has been the foundation or mainstream influence on modern paganism and other religions. Because factually speaking the teachings of christianity are not expansive to them nor did they stem from them.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

Basically, I agree many people hypocritically claimed to be following Christ’s teachings. But I do not see the evidence that ancient pagans were acting hypocritically to their recieved teachings.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

One more time. I am contesting YOUR claim that christianity was the main influence or fundamental reason behind these beliefs in these religions that we see in modern day versions of these teachings

1

Anonymous OP 3w

My argument is that these groups as they exist today are participated in by people who grew up in a culture suffered with the teachings of Christ, though often hypocritical in practice of them. Additionally, the movements started not as returns to ancient pagan teachings but as a way to rebel against hypocritical Christian structures while holding on to certain moral teachings of Christ, and divine understandings not found in ancient paganism they ostensibly claim to be using.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

Can you substantiate either of these claims?

1

Anonymous OP 3w

You have yet to provide a single citation of anything the entire conversation.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

My argument is that modern thinking is based on Christ’s teachings, so should this quote be accurate, it would make modern pagan teachings take heritage from Christian ones. So please either show that modern western thinking did not come from Christian teaching, or that the quote is wrong,

1

Anonymous #5 3w

You never said “modern western thinking” once before just now. If you can show me when you did I’d concede on that misunderstanding but this is the first time you’ve generalized it to all of modern western thinking vs “culture” and other modern religions.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

Something to be aware of, there's a difference between "paganism" as is used regarding the world's various indigenous/polytheistic practices (ancient and current) vs Neopaganism. Some but not all Neopagan practices draw influences from the former (or are reconstructions of the ancient ones). Michael makes note of this in this text

1

Anonymous #5 3w

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Michael-Strmiska/publication/267564928_Modern_Paganism_in_World_Cultures_Comparative_Perspectives/links/5fc75f25299bf188d4e8fe86/Modern-Paganism-in-World-Cultures-Comparative-Perspectives.pdf there it is for you

1

Anonymous OP 3w

I have regularly said modern culture, and in my reply thats a photo starts with “missed reply” i did explicitly indicate the discussion was about modern western culture, and the idea it has been deeply shaped by Christ’s teachings

1

Anonymous OP 3w

Thank you for the full link, and I agree thats its not all pagan practices (which is why I specified mainstream earlier). Also, I feel this discussion has run its course over a joke post. Any last comments you would like to make? And thank you for talking!

1

Anonymous #5 3w

modern culture isn’t christian-centric.

1

Anonymous #5 3w

Yeah, you attribute practices and values to a false misunderstanding of historical and cultural context. That’s all. As long as I’ve gotten you to acknowledge that fact

1