Anonymous amethyst_headphone51 1d

Economically at least illegal immigration has ALWAYS been harmful to American workers going as far back as the gilded age. Driving wages down, scabbing during union strikes, etc etc. The inhumane treatment of immigrants is immoral and fascistic, but also immigrants cause a real problem for uneducated American laborers. Flooding the job market with uneducated migrants who will work for slave wages forces lower class Americans to get college degrees even though most can’t afford them.

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Anonymous amethyst_headphone51 1d

Bottom line if there’s no check on illegal immigration it will deepen the already dire economic situation of poor uneducated Americans

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Anonymous #2 1d

Also, the trans sports thing- there are flat out not enough trans athletes for that, and trans women after HRT have comparable athletic performance to cis women. The whole “trans women in sports!” thing is conservative/TERF fearmongering and propaganda.

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Anonymous #2 1d

It’s not about crime. It’s about economics and protecting our workers. I have plenty of sympathy for refugees and absolutely not grudge against immigrants (my grandfathers on both sides fled WW2) but at the end of the day illegal immigration is a huge strain on the already precarious situation of uneducated American laborers.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Even if I did buy into your misguided assessment of the economics of immigration (I don’t) that still doesn’t give a reason to refrain from abolishing ICE. Immigration enforcement is in no way dependent on that agency’s survival, law enforcement can handle it without them.

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Anonymous OP 1d

It’s the governments responsibility to protect our workers, but not by excluding a different group. Perhaps the government could aim for stronger labor protections instead. Higher minimum wage. Stopping union busting. You get the idea.

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Anonymous #2 1d

Right but what’s the problem with giving them their own category in sports the same way we do men and women?

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Anonymous OP 1d

Separate but equal much? Trans women are women and trans men are men. Who cares if they play sports with the rest? They don’t have a different athletic performance so what’s the problem there?

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Anonymous #2 1d

You cannot be equating segregation to a different sports league 😭 is having men’s teams and women’s teams segregation?

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Anonymous OP 1d

I can absolutely equate the two. Both segregation between white and black people and this case separate a minority group into something that on its surface is equivalent- but in practice not equivalent at all. Do you expect the career prospects, reputation of, and prestige of a sports league specifically for trans people to be the same as the regular organization’s? When trans people are a fraction of a fraction of athletes? Consider the problems women’s sports have and make them 10x worse.

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Anonymous OP 1d

It’s not just sports, either, as “bathroom bills” show.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Ultimately, this stinks of “I’m fine with *those people* but why can’t they exist away from me?” There is no benefit to this, numerous downsides, and frankly seems downright transphobic. Do you expect the local high school to what, make a team for the one trans kid in the entire region that wants to play soccer?

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Anonymous OP 1d

Do you have any sources or statistical evidence that supports that illegal immigration is harmful to our economy and job force?

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Anonymous #4 1d

Excuse me for my ignorance on the topic. But for professional sport like the olympics (idk if that’s even allowed but just an example) i feel having a trans woman competing with cis women could be slightly unfair because of the biological advantage that the trans woman would have. I don’t think transgender people should be excluded from sports but professional sports like the olympics where people do it for a living seems a little unfair. I also don’t think that trans people should be excluded

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Anonymous #4 1d

from such sports because that’s also unfair. But like trans people competing on high school sports and such seems perfectly fine to me because what’s the big deal yk?

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Anonymous #3 1d

Trans women generally have similar athletic performance to cis women.

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Anonymous #3 1d

Here’s just one: “Illegal immigration to the United States in recent decades has tended to depress both wages and unemployment rates for low-skilled American citizens” (U.S. Commission on Civil Rights, 2010) https://www.usccr.gov/files/pubs/docs/IllegImmig_10-14-10_430pm.pdf

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Anonymous #3 1d

With proper testing, I don’t think it matters too much. Also, imo sports is all about having unfair biological advantages. Obviously you can’t be a trans woman on zero hormone therapy competing in women’s sports, but I think of all the women with PCOS who have an unfair biological advantage in that regard. Michael Phelps is another example of an athlete with a biological advantage. Trans women athletes also aren’t out there crushing the competition in most cases

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Anonymous #2 1d

What about vis versa? I guess if not that would just mean they need to train harder and put in more effort.

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Anonymous #3 1d

It’s a basic rule of economics that if there’s a high supply of unskilled labor then that labor will receive a lower wage.

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Anonymous #4 1d

Ohh okay that makes a lot of sense. Thank you!!

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Anonymous #3 1d

What do you mean by vice versa, in this case? Trans men in men’s sports? I’m not actually familiar with that one as much because normally the go to for TERFs to rail against is trans women in women’s sports. (They view trans women as predators, but trans men as confused women.)

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Anonymous amethyst_headphone51 1d

Whether you view it as a positive or not, funding for ice has indeed had a significant correlation with a rise deportations and a decline in illegal border crossings. I personally view this as necessary for the protection of the unskilled poor.

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Anonymous #3 1d

Of course! And yeah I think the athletes throwing a tantrum over it (Riley Gaines comes to mind) just need to do better, to be blunt. I don’t think she even finished in the top 3 in that race against Leah Thomas. There were multiple cis women athletes who did better than Riley and Leah. I think she’s a sore loser

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Anonymous amethyst_headphone51 1d

Still it’s important we respect immigrants human rights and ensure that people from all nations can take the proper paths to enter the country LEGALLY

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Anonymous #2 1d

In a perfect world absolutely the government would take these steps. But even with say a minimum wage in place unchecked illegal immigration will mathematically decrease job opportunities for unskilled Americans

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Anonymous OP 1d

More recent studies though have shown that unemployment has nothing to do with immigration? And the impact on wages is very minimal. Immigrants are taking jobs that the american people don’t want to do thus keeping those industries alive.

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Anonymous #2 1d

That’s a fair point, I was more so referring to professional sports. TBH I personally think it’s important to protect the rights and liberties of trans citizens but when it comes to professional sports I genuinely just don’t see what wrong with the having their own categories/leagues. I mean I guess it’s all up to the individual business incentives for said leagues but idk it seems like a pretty obvious solution

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Anonymous OP 1d

“In a perfect world” ok, but like, these are steps the government could take and just isn’t. We are arguing about the steps the government should take. They should take these steps. And for your last sentence- If the only objection to undocumented immigration is economic and not moral- and is within the power of the government to solve, as you have basically admitted in this comment- then they should take the moral route and deal with the economic implications.

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Anonymous #2 1d

Yeah I was just thinking of the advantages and disadvantages for both trans men and women. That’s very true.

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Anonymous #3 1d

Please enlighten me about these recent studies. In my mind all of this comes from some elitist academic notion that poor whites see themselves as too “good” for menial jobs no matter how good the pay. These same people ignore all their own hotel cleaners, janitors, construction workers, baristas, and more who have all had to compete with people who will do more work for less money because they’re more desperate

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Anonymous #4 1d

God dammit, I keep trying to forget Gaines’ name. Then I keep getting reminded. I don’t want to remember her name, she doesn’t deserve it. She came to my undergrad to spew her bullshit, we did a peaceful protest, she pretended someone hit her and waited until midnight so she could get walked out by the police for the optics so she could grift on social media. (We didn’t want to leave until she did.)

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Anonymous #3 1d

I’m tired of the exploitation and ignorance towards poor folk of all stripes, immigrants included.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Somehow, I think you’re more of a social conservative.

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Anonymous #2 1d

Oh no, did you graduate from that Michigan college? Maybe it was a different time but I remember that a couple years ago and feeling so bad for those grads who worked so hard for their diplomas, just to get that as a reward :/

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Anonymous #4 1d

Not Michigan. This was SFSU. And nobody got in trouble over it, because nothing actually happened. Someone DID get in trouble (unrelated to the protest) for spilling a drink on the tablet? Laptop? the local TPUSA chapter was using while advertising the Gaines event.

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Anonymous #2 1d

Nah I believe in unrestricted abortion, keeping religion out of schools, marriage equality, DEI, etc etc

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Anonymous #2 1d

I’m at a different school for grad studies now which is why I’m on yikyak lol.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Fair enough.

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Anonymous #2 1d

Somehow when I bring up trans sports tho everyone thinks I’m a Nazi like I genuinely believe and care about their rights but they are their own gender group and should be treated as such

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Anonymous #2 1d

Oh my goodness 🤦🏻‍♀️ god forbid. Still sorry you had to deal with all that

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Anonymous #2 1d

Probably the only genuinely conservative take I have is that outside of assault weapons it should be easier to purchase firearms

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Anonymous OP 1d

https://www.brookings.edu/articles/the-impact-of-immigrants-on-the-us-economy/ https://www.americanimmigrationcouncil.org/fact-sheet/economic-blame-game-immigration-and-unemployment/

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Anonymous #4 1d

Oh, the drink spilling was on purpose, as far as I can tell. Which, kinda based. We also had some preachers show up at different times to stand on the grass and tell us we were going to hell. Nothing will ever surpass a preacher yelling at a crowd “how many of you watch PARHNAGRAHPHEE!?!?!” to loud cheering. He hated Cardi B for some reason. Spider-Man was there. It was crazy.

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Anonymous #2 1d

he also hated sex before marriage and at some point said he wasn’t married? Making him a virgin. You can imagine how the crowd reacted to that one.

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Anonymous OP 1d

I don’t think trans people are their own gender group, literally by definition. You’d have a better argument for nonbinary people having their own sport. I still think it’s not great for practicality reasons.

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Anonymous #2 1d

*sport league

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Anonymous #3 1d

Yes this article discusses how immigration increases GDP and tax revenue but NOWHERE does it mention wages or low-skill labor markets. While immigration might be great for American BUSINESSES because it give them cheap labor it does not quote one source or even claim that immigration is good for American WORKERS. All the empirical data suggests that illegal immigraton is a net loss for America’s poor and uneducated work force.

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Anonymous OP 1d

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S1094202515000514

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Anonymous OP 1d

I totally get that you seem to be a reasonable person. But at the same time, you are expressing this at a time we are seeing the government try to take away the rights of trans people like never before. There’s no practical reason for this separation, and a lot of people that will argue for it are the same people that will argue trans people should be “separate but equal” everywhere else that might be gender segregated. And that’s not great. So people are going to react.

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Anonymous OP 1d

Undocumented immigrants lower production costs. Lower costs mean firms expand meaning more job openings. So would removing undocumented immigrants not shrink the labor market? And that’s bad for american workers right?

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Anonymous #3 1d

This article literally states that the presence of illegal immigrants lowers wages for unskilled workers, which was exactly what I said

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Anonymous #3 1d

Bro lowering production costs for corporations does nothing for WORKERS cause corporations won’t spend that money on increasing wages they’ll give their CEO a pay bump! Listen to yourself!

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Anonymous OP 1d

The paper says that it’s such a small issue. It emphasizes the increased job creation and lowered unemployment. It concludes that employment effects matter more than wage effects

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Anonymous OP 1d

Saying that as an absolute statement isn’t true. Gains are split between workers, firms and owners. Workers more often than not benefit more through employment opportunities than wage increases

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Anonymous #2 1d

And honestly, I still don’t get why you want to separate trans people. You haven’t been talking about athletic performance. You haven’t been repeating the conservative fearmongering about locker rooms or w/e. Which means that the only remaining possible issue is you don’t see them as “really women” or “really men”, which- trans women are women and trans men are men, and please, learn more on this one before talking about it. But if that’s not it, then I really don’t know.

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Anonymous #2 1d

Sorry for the wall of text. I have trans friends and family so I have some strong opinions on this. Happy to talk more.

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Anonymous #2 1d

i think OP isn’t totally out of reach of understanding things but they just haven’t had a constructive discussion about it. i recommend OP to call into debate broadcasts Jovan Bradley or The Line with Jimmy Snow to understand what they’re missing in their frame of reference.

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Anonymous #2 1d

Totally understand. To be honest the only two trans friends I have really don’t care and when we talk about it they seem indifferent and like they don’t really have a counterpoint but maybe I’m just dominating the conversation. I’m not purposefully trying to repeat right-wing propaganda and I don’t “want” to be separate from trans people it just seems like a valid compromise that would put the issue to bed.

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Anonymous #2 1d

I’m more focused on economic issues so for me once this shit is out of the way we can get to improving EVERYONES lives and stop having big corporations exploiting them

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Anonymous OP 1d

I get that you like the idea of a compromise, but when the compromise is “you are excluded from this area”, I don’t think a lot of people are going to be happy with that. In practice, it’s just a softer kind of ban. There will never be enough trans athletes to set up a team, much less a league. There’s no valid reasons to form the league in the first place, either- so why should it be formed? To protect the feelings of certain people?

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Anonymous #2 1d

When women were not allowed to serve in the military, the correct response was not to form a separate branch that only allowed women. It was to allow women into the military.

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Anonymous #2 1d

I somehow missed that earlier but yes, trans people should just participate in normal sports leagues

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Anonymous OP 1d

That said? I totally get that it seems like a minor issue. But that’s no reason to compromise on it either.

5