Anonymous #1 1d

5 years of treatment*

-1

Anonymous #1 1d

I understand this seems like a common sense thing, but this is not supported by the science. Studies show that trans women generally have similar athletic performance to cis women, and if they don’t that the difference is fairly small.

11

Anonymous #2 1d

Which it’s not like that’s even rare

3

Anonymous #2 1d

And I’m 6ft

4

Anonymous #2 1d

This is exactly my point. Honestly, I was gonna make my original post on variations in the body- Michael Phelps is the classic example- but since going on HRT involves intentional body changes I felt like this was closer.

6

Anonymous OP 1d

yeah they measure pushups and random things like that that dont matter. a 7 foot tall nba player will retain that advantage in the wnba lmao

-3

Anonymous #3 1d

Would he still have a natural advantage over someone like Zhang Ziyu, Margo Dydek, or Stephanie Okechukwu

14

thats the least useful metric in basketball. my point is the studies showing that theres no difference after hrt are flawed because they measure things like pushups

-3

Anonymous #2 1d

yes

-2

Anonymous #3 1d

Ok and why

8

Anonymous #3 1d

can you provide any evidence to help support your wide-scoped claim of essentially discrediting the current medical consensus?

10

Anonymous #4 1d

i have yet to see a compelling study stating definitively trans women have no advantage in sports

-3

Anonymous #2 1d

And this transphobic shit is gonna end up hurting or heavily regulating normal cis women because of hormone tests and shit.

1

Anonymous #3 1d

Literally the first study I found- “trans women are probably worse, but it’s too complicated to really tell, any differences are within normal range of variances for athletes” (more recent) Second link (a consensus report from 2021)- as long as they’re below a testosterone level, evidence says allow to compete. Needed scihub for this one. https://bjsm.bmj.com/content/58/11/586 https://doi.org/10.1007/s40279-021-01451-8

9

Anonymous #5 1d

Idk i think mine would come up normal right now but that’s only because im literally on an androgen blocker

1

Anonymous #3 1d

Third- differences small, many erased by HRT, any remaining within normal range of variance for athletes, and they also talk about the ethics of it. We don’t exclude people from basketball for being tall, essentially. https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC10641525/

4

Anonymous #5 1d

That was going to be my original point but I thought an intentional change- like bodybuilding or something- would be a better comparison.

4

Anonymous OP 1d

(I ran out of comment space.)

7

Anonymous #3 1d

The thing you gotta realize is not every athlete is going to be 100% identical and that complicates study. What TERFs tend to argue is that the differences specifically caused by being trans are large enough- which we know definitively is not true compared to other differences- and also “unnatural” enough to be banned. You’ve got a stronger case for the second one, but only in the sense that it hasn’t been completely disproven at this point, because it’s a philosophical question.

9

Anonymous OP 1d

If the problem is that it’s an intentional change that alters the body in a way that makes it 1% more capable at the sport, or allows competition where you normally wouldn’t be able to or something? Congratulations, you’ve made an argument for banning exercise. Dieting. Any sort of body conditioning. At least being trans is not specifically intended to gain a competitive advantage.

10

Anonymous OP 1d

And it’s worth noting that there have been no cases where someone faked being trans to get into a women’s sport. Not a single one. It’s a fake problem made up for TERF propaganda.

16

Anonymous #3 1d

so you have no studies or scholarly sources to back up your outlandish claims, just your vibes? hate to break it to you, but the scientific method outweighs your ego🙄

7

Anonymous #4 1d

its pretty obvious there are cases of someone having an advantage, and there are no good studies stating otherwise so

-3

Anonymous #3 1d

“It’s pretty obvious” is not a valid argument when it is not, in fact, obvious. As I just said, in great detail, there is plenty evidence suggesting no difference or differences no more noticeable than existing variation in athletes. Any such difference would not be a valid reason to exclude trans athletes.

14

Anonymous #3 1d

“If you don’t have any studies indicating there aren’t unicorns around Jupiter, that means my belief in them is justified”

10

Anonymous #5 1d

In this case, there are studies that say there are no unicorns around Jupiter and studies that say there’s some kind of objects there, but there’s a good chance that it’s all just rocks.

11

Anonymous OP 1d

Although actually Jupiter’s rings are just dust, really, in the micron size. So I should have said dust.

12

Anonymous #5 1d

i mean we know that men have a competitive advantage over women, so the base assumption should be trans women have a competitive advantage over cis women until there are studies showing otherwise

-2

Anonymous OP 1d

Is it really wrong to think anecdotal evidence is valid in some cases, though? The MLB, NBA, NFL, NHL, and PGA all allow women to compete alongside the men. I think we’d see a very different makeup of each league if the gap between men and women was really as small as you suggest

-1

Anonymous #1 1d

It’s not wrong to consider it, it’s wrong to weigh it higher than empirical evidence though. anecdotal evidence is just that, anecdotal. it’s inherently subjective.

7

Anonymous #1 1d

When did I say there was no noticeable difference between men and women who are athletes, because I said no such thing?

14

Anonymous OP 1d

I might have misread your 1% comment then

3

Anonymous #3 1d

We know that trans women undergo a process to become as close to cis women as possible, so why should we assume that their bodies remain close to men?

19

Anonymous OP 1d

And even then, like, that’s why we do studies? Which I linked?

13

Anonymous OP 1d

the point is since we know that, and we know the differences are huge, we should wait until quality research comes out on the topic because the base assumption should be those advantages dont wash away after more than a year of hrt

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Anonymous #3 1d

Why are you assuming any research that doesn’t agree with you is not quality research? Because that’s the only conclusion I can draw from your comments so far. You have not given a single reason why it’s not good other than “didn’t convince me”, and you could just be stubborn, which is what I think is happening.

13

Anonymous OP 1d

The fact of the matter is the research either shows “no difference” or “small enough to not matter” or “no difference after HRT”, so just require HRT and call it a day. That’s all that needs to be done.

15

Anonymous OP 1d

And you never got around to my original point either- the point of the entire post- which is “even if there is a difference, that doesn’t matter, we see bigger differences all the time in sports”. Is the existence of Michael Phelps a threat to the right of men with less lung capacity to swim? The existence of tall men a threat to the rights of short men to play basketball?

14

Anonymous OP 1d

And unlike dieting and body conditioning, the point of gender transition is not to gain a competitive advantage. It is to live your best life. So why should we restrict the rights of trans people to play sports for “unfairness” when we do not do the same for anything else? You are here to argue about the advantages thing and not discuss the entire point of the post. You are losing the advantages thing. I think you should head out. Thank you for coming.

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Anonymous OP 1d

because the study designs are terrible. small sample sizes, no metrics of athletic performance, no inclusion criteria, obvious confounders for results that are not addressed, etc etc

-3

Anonymous OP 1d

no its not, because as a society we drew the line at male and female, so no one considers it unfair when a 5’8 guy cant be in the nba

-3

Anonymous #3 1d

so you do recognize that your perspective is societally/culturally rooted, rather than any scientific basis? at least you’re a good example of why anti-intellectualism is such a plague on our species.

9

Anonymous #4 1d

well yeah, the concept of fairness is subjective and society arbitrarily draws the line. its inherently a philosophical debate that can use scientific fact to guide it

0

Anonymous #3 1d

society has a well-documented history of abusing that arbitrary designation in favor is systemically oppressing specific demographics, so I’m not sure why you’d attempt to invoke coerced societal roles.

6

Anonymous #4 1d

In favor of*

9

Anonymous #4 1d

yeah most people are content with the male female sports divide not really sure the point youre trying to make. all im saying is that society has chosen the framework it prefers for sports and within that framework trans women likely have a systematic advantage in sport

-3

Anonymous #3 1d

again, do you have studies to back up your claims? in all honesty it appears as if you don’t actually research anything you believe in, just pure “ehh I feel like this is true, so it probably is” type of mentality.

8

Anonymous #3 1d

Also do you not know that intersex athletes exist?

11

Anonymous #4 1d

once again, men and women have known and large differences in athletic performance. its incumbent on the people making the claim that hrt reduces performance to female levels to provide evidence which they havent. until then the base assumption should be that a systematic advantage from male puberty is present

-2

Anonymous #5 1d

yeah and their participation in sports, specifically womens sports, is an area of huge debate

-2

Anonymous #3 1d

OP literally cited studies for you, something which you have yet to do in support of your own claim. I recommend you take a good long look in a mirror and stop projecting one of the major flaws you’ve been guilty of, well this entire conversation.

6

Anonymous #4 1d

yeah theyre not good studies. they all have severe limitations, as ive said. once again, the bar is QUALITY studies

-2

Anonymous #3 1d

additionally, have you forgotten about hormone blockers?

7

Anonymous #4 1d

you understand the studies are not good right?

-2

Anonymous #3 1d

you have no capability of setting any bar at all, when you continue to fail to support your own claims. scratch my comment about anti-intellectualism earlier, this seems more closely related to malicious-intellectualism.

9

Anonymous #3 1d

you understand you still haven’t produced your own, right? who are you to determine what is and isn’t a good study? That is what the peer review process is for. again, since you seemingly need a reminder, the scientific process far outweighs your ego.

7

Anonymous #4 1d

i’ll wait for you to defend the actual studies, which for the fourth time are not good. i dont think youve even read them. ironic because youre whining about anti intellectualism lmao

-2

Anonymous #4 1d

im gonna take the sidestepping as an acknowledgement the studies are bad

-2

Anonymous #3 1d

you’ll be waiting quite some time, as I’m not entertaining any of your requests until you actually provide your own studies in support of your claim. you can talk as much shit as you want, but you still haven’t cited a single piece of evidence in support of your claims. and if you didn’t notice, I said your behavior seems more closely related to malicious-intellectualism rather than anti-intellectualism. I accused you of anti-intellectualism earlier.

11

Anonymous #4 1d

both, unironically, are common tactics for spreading discriminatory ideologies. isn’t that a coincidence?

6

Anonymous #4 1d

ive responded to this point like 3 times so i’ll wait for a response instead of this loop

-2

Anonymous #3 1d

You’ve dodged the topic multiple times, you mean?

6

Anonymous #4 1d

I don’t care about your attempts at discrediting OP’s citations, you need to support your own claims for once. like I accused you of earlier, it seems like you don’t actually research any of your beliefs (at least not this one), and go entirely based off your current “vibes”

8

Anonymous #4 1d

well the research is abundant showing the huge advantages males have over females in athletics. my extension of that that hrt likely doesnt undo those advantages in two years doesnt have research for it, but im willing to admit that instead of citing bunk research. im making an educated guess based on what i know about male and female athletics

-1

Anonymous #4 1d

if you want to say theres no quality research on either side of the claim so we cant know anything for sure i wouldnt disagree with that, which is why i say i think its LIKELY the advantage persists, not certain

-1

Anonymous #3 1d

Unironically this is terrible logic and idk why or how you’re still trying to stick with it.

5

Anonymous #5 1d

okay, then we can just agree that we cant say anything either way

-1

Anonymous #3 1d

if it’s abundant you’d be able to cite a study you’ve read. assuming you’ve actually researched the topic that is… to end this conversation off: you’re entirely ignoring those who begin hormone blockers at the start of puberty. please take the time to actually research this topic.

5

Anonymous #4 1d

well yeah but thats completely moving the goalpost lmao. you havent substantively responded to a single point. id urge you to take a look at some of these 8-10 person studies “proving” theres no advantage, theyre total garbage

-2

Anonymous #4 1d

https://journals.lww.com/acsm-msse/fulltext/2023/12000/the_biological_basis_of_sex_differences_in.21.aspx heres a good summary of sex differences in athletics, including a discussion of the limitations of studies on trans athletes and the suggestion of some of the studies that trans women athletes retain an advantage. have fun!

-1

Anonymous #3 1d

…they barely touch on the affect of HRT in the human body at all in the review. It’s a review of differences between male and female bodies, not just with regards to trans people. You have- One study that is heavily affected by survivorship bias, due to 94% dropout rate of trans people in the Air Force after 2 years. One study that’s a case study of one individual trans athlete who may have had better performance, just looking at NCAA swim times in relation to HRT. Of one person.

4

Anonymous OP 1d

Like, cmon, if you want to argue against multiple well-regarded studies you need to pick something better. Like doi.org/10.1136/bjsports-2025-110239, a meta-analysis which does not support you. (I thought a meta analysis would be appropriate considering you posted a review.)

5

Anonymous #3 1d

Complaining about 8-10 person studies and you post a mostly-unrelated review where the related bit is a study of one person and a study with a 94% dropout rate where the ones that don’t drop out are biased to be in your arguments favor- because they’re in the fucking Air Force and need to be fit.

3

Anonymous OP 1d

And, hey, if you’re worried about not enough data, a meta-analysis should be the answer you are looking for considering it’s all about gathering data from numerous studies.

5

Anonymous OP 18h

well the reason why i posted was that review was because the person i was responding to said i had no sources to say that men are more athletically dominant than women, so thats what i posted it to show

-1

Anonymous OP 18h

yes a meta analysis can only be as good as the quality of studies being put into it. unfortunately there are significant problems with this meta analysis. i just find it strange youre citing all these studies and you cant seem to actually defend any of them

-1