Anonymous #1 5w

I am not pro-Zionist, but if you look at the history of Zionism it really isn’t unusual. Early Zionism was dominated by utopian socialist projects, that’s where Israel’s communal kibbutzim come from. Socialist Zionism was perhaps the dominant form for most of Zionist history. I take issue with it, as I think socialism to the exclusion of specific ethnic groups is not a genuine pursuit of socialist ideals. But it’s not uncommon historically.

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Anonymous #2 5w

Zionism as understood in the modern political context of Israel is inherently discriminatory and racial in a non socialist way. To the second point semi more interesting point but I feel as tho as socialism like ideology is inherently nationalist in governance.

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Anonymous #1 5w

zionism=the belief that jewish people have a right to sovereignty in their ancestral homeland

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Anonymous OP 5w

That’s not Zionism as understood in any real context

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Anonymous #1 5w

Hmmm, I think you may be confusing Zionism for revisionist Zionism specifically. That’s the more right-leaning form which currently dominates Israeli politics. Maybe that’s how the word Zionism is used these days, but labor Zionism is a very important part of Zionism, and it dominated Israel’s politics for decades.

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Anonymous #1 5w

i do not sanction or defend the current military acts of atrocity in gaza, that is evil, but i do believe in zionism as i defined it

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Anonymous #2 5w

Labor zionist governments led ethnic cleansing in decades past. The racial discrimination coexisted with the socialist aspect. Socialist labor parties in South Africa and Australia coexisted with apartheid and settler colonialism. It’s not unusual for socialism to only focus on one ethnic group, as much as I dislike that.

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Anonymous #1 5w

quite literally the definition of the zionist movement

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Anonymous #1 5w

The actual definition of Zionism refers to the movement of Jews back to the land of historical israel to form their own state. People may use it today to refer to like the expansionism only, but that’s a misuse of the term rather than a proper definition. If we are using different definitions that will make the discussion not comprehensible

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Anonymous #2 5w

Modern Zionism is distinctly poltical

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Anonymous #1 5w

That’s not what modern Zionist means dude. Israel has labor Zionist parties that support a 2 state solution. Zionism generally does support a Jewish-majority state (and I would argue that makes marginalization of Arabs nearly inevitable) but it does not contradict a two state solution. You’re getting your definition of Zionism from social media, not from the actual political term

1

Anonymous #3 5w

ive been deadass for at least 5 years. the common understanding of the term zionism is incredibly bastardized—i don’t support genocide, just the idea that jewish people have the right to rule over their homeland

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Anonymous #1 5w

And you think socialist labor Zionism wasn’t also political? It’s the party that founded Israel my guy it was political too.

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Anonymous #1 5w

i don’t reject equal rights for arabs, just believe jews have the right to rule over their homeland as i believe any native group deserves final/highest control over their ancestral land

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Anonymous #2 5w

Man, I honestly didn’t realize people were this misinformed about what the term actually means.

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Anonymous OP 5w

I have several significant problems with this that I would like to talk about, though I don’t want to distract too much from me trying to help explain the proper definition to #1

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Anonymous #2 5w

& big agree that zionism does not contradict a two-state solution, i very much support a two state solution!

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Anonymous #4 5w

me when i “learned” the definition of zionism from instagram

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Anonymous OP 5w

i’m a political science major, take a mf class

-1

Anonymous OP 5w

Me too, I know what Zionism is. But quite frankly I do not believe that this apartheid state should exist.

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Anonymous #4 5w

and me neither… zionism doesnt mean i ❤️ the current israeli government. im for a two state solution, zionism js means i believe jews have a right to the land

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Anonymous #1 5w

That’s how I understand it

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Anonymous OP 5w

Zionism is the belief of an apartheid state within Palestine… since the Jewish religion believes that it’s their land. You’ll never get a two state solution with Zionism.

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Anonymous #2 5w

dm

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Anonymous OP 5w

Okay

5

Anonymous #4 5w

….apartheid? Against who? No Palestinians live in Israel? No Arabs? No Muslims?

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Anonymous #5 5w

Well when Israel claims Palestinian land, it is them living in Israel.

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Anonymous #4 5w

What does apartheid mean. U said apartheid. Explain what you meant by that

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Anonymous #5 5w

I’ll point out that apartheid is a term used for the segregation in South Africa, so to better understand I’ll just say apartness. Or if you want an example maybe Jim Crow, I know it has to do with racial segregation.

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Anonymous #4 5w

And there’s racial segregation in Israel so extreme that you call it apartheid? What’s something a non jew not do in Israel that a Jew can do?

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Anonymous #5 5w

It’s in the occupied West Bank. The videos of the idf being discriminatory are not ai.

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Anonymous #4 5w

U mean the area that’s not Israel? So it’s still not an apartheid. Ur just using big words to push ur agenda. Words that you have NO clue what they mean

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Anonymous #5 5w

So like israel controls the land… and since it controls the land it has controls the state… and since it controls the state it is allowing Israeli citizens to occupy the West Bank and it’s allowing for the discrimination of Palestinian people… and that discrimination of people is considered apartheid under international law… sorry that you don’t know these words. Take international relations or sum

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Anonymous #5 5w

I would consider the West Bank specifically to be a form of apartheid, but not the territory within Israel proper. This is because Israeli law is imported into the West Bank, and is applied differently to people who do not have citizenship rights (Palestinians) while Israelis are citizens. West Bank Palestinians have much more restricted freedom of movement and are subject to discriminatory state violence. It’s very similar to the apartheid regime in Namibia, down to being an occupied territory

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Anonymous #4 5w

I’m a middle eastern studies major. But thank you. And yeah they control the area because they got it in the 6 day war but they left Gaza on 05. Israel isn’t the good guy but saying shit like “is not real” and saying that they shouldnt exist at all is just antisemitic.

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Anonymous #5 5w

Israel can exist, I just don’t believe a Jewish centered state should exist. Just like I don’t want a Christian or Islamic state.

1

Anonymous #5 5w

!!!!! this. i dont fw the current israeli gov at ALL, simply believe zionism =right to jewish state

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Anonymous #4 5w

christianity and even islam have historically fallen into the category of persecutor rather than persecuted, i only believe jews have the right to a safe homeland because of their extreme historical persecution

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Anonymous #4 5w

Ok so you should say that about Afghanistan, Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Brunei, Comoros, Djibouti, Egypt, Iran (ESPECIALLY IRAN), Iraq, Jordan, Kuwait, Libya, Malaysia, Maldives, Mauritania, Morocco, Oman, Pakistan, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Tunisia, United Arab Emirates, and Yemen. Or better yet you want to talk abt Christian states, let’s talk abt the one you currently live in. Our money says in god we trust. Our pledge of allegiance says “one nation under god”.

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Anonymous #5 5w

i would say that about any one of those state and i don’t fw the u.s. gov at all. did you read the “socialist” part of this post

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Anonymous #4 5w

Or do you only speak out against the Jewish one. (Key word. Jewish ONE) I just listed 25 Islamic states (all of which Jews were exiled) and there is only one Jewish state. Jews then were given a tiny pocket of land (size of New Jersey) to which Muslim people live there and have not been exiled and you have a problem with it. So no Jews are allowed in the Middle East?

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Anonymous OP 5w

I like you

1

Anonymous OP 5w

That wasn’t for you. That was for the antisemitic jackass saying there can’t be a Jewish state

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Anonymous #5 5w

It’s incorrect to act as if the Haganah and other forces did not expel large amounts of Muslims and Christians during the foundation of Israel proper, as well as the Golan heights and other occupied territories.

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Anonymous #5 5w

oh u so right mb i just get notifs for all replies

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Anonymous #5 5w

Israel is an apartheid state doing a genocide. Being against it isn’t antisemitic. Claiming that it’s antisemitic to be against Israel is actually what’s antisemitic because it ties all Jews to Israel despite Judaism ≠ Zionism and committing genocide & apartheid obviously not being inherent to Jews

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Anonymous #6 5w

That’s not what we’re saying dumbass. Were saying it’s irresponsible to say Israel shouldn’t exist at all

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Anonymous #2 5w

Answer what I said. Dont deflect

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Anonymous #5 5w

A group being persecuted does not erase the harm committed by a colonial project. Persecuted groups have pursued colonialism to the detriment of indigenous people many times. Liberia, Sierra Leone, Huguenots, Mennonites, Amish, Hutterites, Volga Germans, English dissenters, Quakers, doukobhors, Irish. Settlers tend to be people who are themselves desperate. Both their persecution and the harm the colonization causes are real.

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Anonymous #5 5w

Hey dumbass chill. Israel in its current state shouldn’t exist. Just like Apartheid South Africa & Nazi Germany shouldn’t have & don’t exist today.

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Anonymous #6 5w

Pulse you made it sound like speaking out against Israel is antisemitic with your whole SPEAKING OUT AGAINST THE JEWISH STATE BS

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Anonymous #2 5w

We cannot pursue a solution to the persecution of every minority group by shipping them all off to a new state. I understand why Jews in the 1880s did not wait for an acceptance that was not coming, I do not blame them. I know why Zionism happened. But we can’t just go “well the Roma are persecuted, time to chop off a piece of Bosnia.” It’s not a solution to persecution.

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Anonymous #2 5w

So then get mad at the UN

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Anonymous #5 5w

The Lehi, Irgun, and Haganah had militant activities for years. The UN didn’t create Israel out of thin air. Without their pressure, it wouldn’t have happened. Those groups would have continued revolting against the British until Israel was created. And those were the groups who expelled and massacred Palestinians. The UN nor the British directed them to do that’s

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Anonymous #2 5w

It is completely inappropriate to remove the autonomy of historical Zionists and claim the UN or the British just made Israel. Those groups were fighting for it. But I see people misrepresent that often.

6