Anonymous #1 17w

Damn. Sad

3

Anonymous dankster 17w

Makes sense, I wish more men would speak out against Trump I hate that it’s turned into a gender thing

1

Anonymous OP 17w

If dems dropped the trans stuff and focused on workers rights and the average man I guarantee it would shift overnight

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Anonymous #1 17w

Kinda hard to “drop the trans stuff” when republicans are trying to insert the government and its opinions into trans peoples lives. At this point if you’re pro limited government you’re a democrat

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Anonymous #4 17w

Not commenting on if dems should drop it, just saying it’s pretty obviously gonna make democrats seem less masculine and is probably the main reason they don’t seem it

1

Anonymous #1 17w

Wrong, conservatives and progressives have inherently irreconcilable worldviews. There can only be armistice or annihilation. Politics is not an isolated vote for who is the president, but an expansive vision for how the world (polity) is to look like. The real question is whether the values and visions adopted are good, true, and just.

1

Anonymous #1 17w

Idk I don’t see anything masculine about abandoning vulnerable groups. I think we (democrats) just need to find a better online presence to explain how standing up for peoples rights is about the manliest thing you can do

3

Anonymous #4 17w

It’s not about what groups are vulnerable, you’re taking masculinity and saying that ‘hey there’s actually no definition of man or what it means to be a man’. That’s like the last thing any somewhat traditional man or developing boy wants to hear, which is why you get such a strong divide from younger generation that grow up alongside that narrative

1

Anonymous #1 17w

How does that relate to erasing trans history or banning trans people from sports and the military?

1

Anonymous #4 17w

The notion that the government would be involved in people’s lives is unsurprising, the purpose of government is to govern for its people. A government that lacks such power over its people is no government at all. The problem is not of government power, but policy, and whether that government policy is conducive to the common good.

3

Anonymous #4 17w

The trans stuff should be very low on the list of priorities. As a nonbinary person it honestly pisses me off that this is discussed as much as it is while significantly worse things are happening to immigrants, protesters, and poor people. It’s a deliberate attempt to stall real change and sow division

1

Anonymous dankster 17w

Well yeah sorta no shit. They’re pushing bad policy, that’s my point. There is a debate to be had about HOW trans people play in sports. There’s a debate to be had about HOW we get trans youth access to healthcare. We should have those debates. Erasing the history of trans people (see the stonewall inn monument) is not something worth debating. Banning trans expression (Kennedy center) or trans athletes all together is a non starter.

1

Anonymous #6 17w

It should, but unfortunately republicans want to use trans people as scapegoats and wants to punish them to make other Americans feel vindicated. If trans people are being kept from voting (Republican led efforts to turn away voters who’s ID’s don’t match their birth certificates) then that’s a threat to all of us. Once rights get removed for some it becomes a slippery slope

1

Anonymous #4 17w

This is part of the Republican playbook btw. They viciously attack a small misunderstood group of people then claim democrats are out of touch for “focusing too much” on defending those people. It’s brilliant strategy on their part and it’s very hard for the Democratic Party to answer to. That’s why trumps ad campaign of “Kamala is for they/them, trump is for you” worked so well

6

Anonymous #4 17w

I mean I consider myself a pretty moderate person and agree the question absolute lies in HOW you address those issues. But again, this whole post was addressing why being leftist is seen as being weak, and erasing masculinity and convincing men and women they are 100% the same is a large reason why, even if the motivations are good.

1

Anonymous #4 17w

I never stated that, and yes debate is useless, as I stated earlier political divisions only arise over irreconcilable worldviews. Therefore, a hands off approach is wrong. Policy doesn’t just magically consensus itself among the ‘marketplace of ideas.’

2

Anonymous #1 17w

Where are you getting the idea that men and women are the same? Why do you keep making that point?

1

Anonymous dankster 17w

Not the case at all. The divide over trans people is almost entirely manufactured by the Republican Party. Abortion is a bit of an irreconcilable issue, people know about it and have very strong moral beliefs. The vast majority of people who feel ire towards trans people genuinely have no clue what they’re even mad about. They think “mutilating kids” is wrong, (like anyone would) but haven’t the slightest clue what trans healthcare entails.

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Anonymous #4 17w

Trans healthcare and trans athletics are both extremely niche areas with lots of nuance that needs to be considered when making policy. The average voter knows nothing about this. They know that republicans say trans people are grooming their kids and mutilating them. They hear that trans people are beating up cis women and creeping around bathrooms. That’s why it’s an issue. In reality there are exceptionally few trans people and the way they live does not affect the vast majority of people

0

Anonymous #4 17w

Obviously it’s all outrage theatre, but that doesn’t make the positions held any less irreconcilable. The worldviews are that Gender-affirming care is “medical malpractice” or “life saving”, that trans people are “valid” or “delusional”, that gender is a “scientific binary” or a “social construct”. Do you really think there’s anyone in that battle who holds gender affirming care is “life-saving malpractice” and trans people are “validly delusional”? I don’t think so.

1

Anonymous #4 17w

That just… isn’t true.

1

Anonymous #1 17w

How so?

1

Anonymous dankster 17w

Gender affirming care is life saving. If you look at the outcomes of gender affirming care (both surgical and non surgical) and you look at trans suicide rates, it’s almost impossible to come to a different conclusion.

1

Anonymous #4 17w

If you understand the psychological studies done on trans people then you can understand how useless words like “delusional” really are. People aren’t making up the way they feel, and they aren’t being told to feel that way by some adult groomer.

1

Anonymous #4 17w

And most people are assigned a sex at birth (intersex people being an exception), although gender and the way people present their gender is indeed a social construct.

1

Anonymous #4 17w

Point being, this is not an issue where the grounds of the debate are known by the parties doing the debating. Abortion largely is, it’s much simpler to grasp. The conversation around trans people is very intentionally unscientific and sensationalized, at least from the right. To me it seems like you can’t exactly say it’s irreconcilable when the knowledge base most people are operating with is so incredibly small and typically inaccurate.

1

Anonymous #4 17w

When you can actually tell someone the facts and have them say what their policies would be to address the real issues, they’re often very compassionate and reasonable.

1

Anonymous #4 17w

Nobody makes up how they feel but that’s a dumb argument, anorexic people don’t make up that they feel fat… also not talking about trans care I’m just talking incorporating it into you main issues makes you seem less masculine and more weak

1

Anonymous #1 17w

Right, so when treating anorexic people we base our interventions based on the treatments that yield the best outcome. For trans people, the best outcome, as has been documented many times over, is gender affirming care. If you care about these people and their condition, you should care about which solutions has been proven to be the most effective.

1

Anonymous #4 17w

And honestly I’m still just not understanding your second point. Is it weak for men to defend women because women aren’t manly and are weaker? I feel like the manly thing to do is defend those who are physically weaker

1