Anonymous #2 7w

I believe the brown people there deserve to have self determination and to be freed from the neocolonial yoke. What’s so disgusting about that?

3

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

How so?

1

Anonymous OP 7w

You think Hawaii and peurto Rico, two nations who have relied on the worlds most powerful nation for a long time now, would just be fine if we cut them loose from all we give them? No man. We consumed them. Now they’re can’t functionally exist without us. It’s fucked up, unfair, but it’s true. What they need to be is states. Or peurto Rico should be.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

“From all we give them” do you realize just how much we extract from Hawaii? We take their land and put resorts on it, and the profits from those resorts go to American tourism companies rather than the people of Hawaii. The people of the islands should reap the rewards of the industries that they run!

0

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

I don’t think you understand the concept of forced reliance frienderoonie

6

Anonymous OP 7w

Homie I’m aware. That doesn’t mean Hawaii could just survive as its own country.

4

Anonymous og_beer 7w

I do understand the concept, but forced reliance is reliance regardless. It would take decades upon decades to prepare Hawaii and peurto Rico to become independent of us. And they wouldn’t really gain from it. Ultimately if the populations of Hawaii and peurto rico WANT this, which I don’t believe is the case, then sure. I’m a pro democracy girlie, and I love an underdog story. But it would be brutal.

4

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

I don’t believe it should be its own country, but I do believe it could have been one successfully if we hadn’t intervened. The point is the reason they are economically weak and reliant is our fault. We are the assholes here. It’s like beating your spouse until you break their wrist and tell them they couldn’t live without you because you covered the medical bills

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Anonymous og_beer 7w

Yeah I know lmao. I’m not saying we’re the good guys, or that it isn’t our fault, I’m just saying this is the way it is now. We can’t just go back to a time when Hawaii and peurto Rico could’ve feasibly been independent

8

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

No, but we can actively work towards a future where we aren’t actively exploiting them via colonial rule

5

Anonymous og_beer 7w

And I’m not against that, obviously. But I don’t think that future contains independence for a very, very long time

3

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

It’s actually not obvious you’re against that bc you’ve adamantly justified maintaining the status quo this entire time

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Anonymous og_beer 7w

If I was adamantly justifying the status quo, I wouldn’t be saying peurto Rico should be a state.

7

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

While statehood could be a step towards federal representation rights, it is in no way ending our exploitative colonial rule

-1

Anonymous og_beer 7w

Right but the alternative is worse for them. It’s not fair that it’s worse it’s fucked up, but like, we gotta be pragmatic. The best thing for a territory like Peurto Rico is to be represented within our nation. Unless the people vote to be independent instead. Which I think would be a bad idea, but if they want that it should be their right.

4

Anonymous og_beer 7w

But as far as I’m aware statehood is the preferred outcome in the eyes of the peurto rican public. Could be wrong idk for sure

4

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

I mean if that’s what they vote for then who am I to tell them they are wrong?

4

Anonymous OP 7w

That’s what I’m saying. If they want independence and vote for it, okay. That’s fine with me. I don’t think it’s a good idea, but it should be their right. That said, as far as I’m aware they aren’t seeking independence as a majority.

5

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

No one is saying we drop them off the face of the earth and ignore their existence. But working towards active independence is the most preferred outcome. Statehood is preferred for the voting population as of the most recent vote (57%), but only like 63% of people participated in the vote so take it with a grain of salt. You also have to remember the entirety of the population cannot remember a time where they were not directly under American rule, and our propaganda machine is strong

1

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

Like I’m obv not saying go directly against voters I’m just saying we as the voting people of United States of America should not idly sit by and allow our government to continually exploit entire territories of people to force dependence

1

Anonymous og_beer 7w

Why is independence preferred?

3

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

In general in the long term? To end our exploitation. And if they’re a state we will never let go and end up making it worse (I mean just look at what we’ve done to poor Hawaii)

1

Anonymous og_beer 7w

We can’t en our exploitation of these territories without making the independent?

3

Anonymous og_beer 7w

They HAVE to be independent for exploitation to end?

1

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

We *can*. But will we? No. Because we still haven’t

1

Anonymous og_beer 7w

We also haven’t made them independent. But we’re not pretending that’s some impossibility, are we?

2

Anonymous og_beer 7w

This feels like it’s very all or nothing in your mind. Which I get, but I don’t think is reflective of reality. I want to make it clear I’m not opposed to independence as a long term goal, and I acknowledge the propaganda we feed Puerto Rico would make them less amenable to independence over statehood. But there are also a very many practical and logical reasons why independence would be a nightmare, even with our support.

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Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

It’s not all or nothing. It’s just a blatant statement that our government is actively engaging in exploitation despite statehood, so I know it’s not a solution, because so I will not trust our government to do otherwise no matter how much the propaganda machine tries to force me to. They should very much have the right to representation in our government as long as our government controls them, but we shouldn’t be forcing them to let us control them. It’s not a choice if we force it

1

Anonymous og_beer 7w

It feels like we’re on the same side idk why we’re arguing anymore tbh

4

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

Bc we aren’t? You believe statehood will somehow end exploitation, or that the exploitation our government forces upon them is “fine” bc we’ve mad the alternative impossible? Lesser of two evils type of moment instead of choosing to not be evil

-1

Anonymous og_beer 7w

That’s not a very accurate summation of my beliefs.

3

Anonymous og_beer 7w

I think that statehood will reduce exploitation by a small factor. Not get rid of it. I believe the issue of exploitation is kind of unrelated to whether or not they’re a state frankly. We will exploit them either way. So shouldn’t our focus be on allowing Puerto Rico to self determine, and then working on reducing the actual exploitation itself? Like, exploitation wouldn’t end if they were independent either lol

3

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

By what metric are you basing statehood will reduce exploitation though? Bc it has yet to for Hawaii

1

Anonymous og_beer 7w

Well I imagine if Hawaii was a territory with even less autonomy and even less representation things would be worse.

3

Anonymous og_beer 7w

Maybe I’m wrong but that’s certainly the impression I get. You yourself said statehood increases their representation in our systems.

3

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

And since when has that representation actually worked? Hawaiians have been begging us forever to leave them alone and stop our tourism industry. Their representatives attempt to introduce bills to force it. Has that ever worked?

1

Anonymous og_beer 7w

Do you think it would be better if they had none?

5

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

I think it would be better if we weren’t involved

1

Anonymous og_beer 7w

But we are.

4

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

But we don’t have to be

0

Anonymous og_beer 7w

In theory yeah. And I’d like to work toward that future if it’s what the people of Hawaii and Puerto Rico want. But we’d be talking about decades and decades of work to make sure they don’t get fucked immediately. And in the immediate, the best thing we can do for our territories is fold them in, if only to reduce our abuse just a little.

4

Anonymous mushy.the.mushroom 7w

You’re really missing the part where abuse doesn’t reduce

0

Anonymous og_beer 7w

I think they definitely do, it’s just very difficult to undo.

1