Anonymous #1 23h

Yeah if peace is when settlers tear up your olive groves and squat in your house until you leave, and if you have a problem with it the IDF comes and backs them up

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Anonymous #2 23h

If that only occurs because of ongoing conflict, you'd think that if arms were laid down and an official Palestine recognized by Israel was established, that would no longer occur

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Anonymous #1 23h

“If that only occurs because of ongoing conflict” it doesn’t. It occurs regularly and for years, even when there is no overt war. Plus the PA governing the West Bank isn’t Hamas and if anything are quite complacent with whatever Israel demands of it

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Anonymous #2 23h

Did it start in 2023 or not? You can’t say “even when there’s no conflict” and then also go around saying there’s always been conflict. As for the PA, there is not currently an Israeli-recognized Palestine regardless of if Hamas or the PA governs the area. If the condition to getting an Israeli-recognized Palestine is to lay down their arms, theres not really that much reason to believe it wouldn’t stop once they did

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Anonymous #1 21h

So you’re saying the reason for illegal settlements & being built in the West Bank for decades along with Palestinians being killed is due to Israel not recognizing them as sovereign people with a right to self determination which is due to the actions of Palestinians in a different area & the way to get Israelis to see Palestinians in the West Bank as people worthy of self determination & sovereignty is by the Palestinians in Gaza to all lay down their arms so Israel will no longer be forced to

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Anonymous OP 21h

Commit a genocide & continue the apartheid.

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Anonymous OP 21h

I’m saying the battle for land continues because there is an ongoing conflict that neither side has relented on. If one side did, it would be resolved. Do the Palestinians see the future of the West Bank and Gaza as separate countries? The answer is no. So until both are sorted out, neither one is going to be resolved. That’s why it hasn’t today. There wouldn’t be even the possibility of apartheid if it was a separate country, it would simply be 2 countries

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Anonymous #1 21h

Got it so you’re saying that the reason for decades long building of illegal settlements & killing of Palestinians in the West Bank is due to the actions of Hamas on 10/7/23

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Anonymous OP 21h

Israel’s had was forced to be a decades long apartheid although they didn’t want to & they were forced to do a genocide & it’s up to the people living under the apartheid & genocide to learn how to behave so that that the people doing the apartheid & genocide can finally stop & no longer be forced to do these things.

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Anonymous OP 21h

Quite the opposite actually, pretty sure I specifically said that in the message you first responded to. So long as the Palestinian people and Israel fight over the same land, both are going to try to take what they can until one capitulates to the other.

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Anonymous #1 21h

Got it you’re saying someone has to capitulate or it will keep going. But can the people already leaving under apartheid & genocide really capitulate & appease the Israelis? I mean I feel the West Bank is a prime example of capitulation in the way that you seem to be talking about gets you. Historical speaking no one living under oppression has ever gained sovereignty by asking their oppressors to see them as humans & equals.

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Anonymous OP 21h

Yes. They can. You can talk about history but how many times in history has said oppressing force actually offered the sovereignty? So historical precedent doesn’t really apply here. And like I just said, the West Bank and Gaza are the heart of a future Palestinian state. Both. Until the 2 BOTH accept Israel’s existence and their terms for peace (as the side with actual political and military leverage whether we like it or not), fighting will continue

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Anonymous #1 21h

So you’re saying that Israel is actually being forced to do a genocide & apartheid by Palestinians. Israel doesn’t want to keep building illegal settlements in the West Bank but the Palestinians are making them

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Anonymous OP 21h

If that’s what I was saying I would’ve said that. Israel isn’t forced to do anything. They could pack it up and call it a day and dismantle the country tomorrow if they wanted to. But why would they?

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Anonymous #1 21h

So you’re saying Israel kept trying to stop & give them land back while simultaneously building illegal settlements & doing mass killings actions but no one is forcing them to keep doing it yet the Palestinians need to capitulate so they will stop doing it. That sounds like an insane amount of contradictions

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Anonymous OP 21h

Israel continued to fight, and while fighting offered outs to their enemies. Each time an out was denied or exploited, the next offer got worse or security measures got tighter. I don’t see any contradiction. It’s actually quite standard. In negotiations it’s capitulation, eventually it no longer becomes a negotiation and it becomes surrender. If you want to talk historical precedent, this is it

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Anonymous #1 21h

I’m pretty sure that if Palestinians stopped fighting, Israeli settlers would continue to displace Palestinians wherever they could to build settlements, and the IDF or police would not meaningfully hinder their ability to do so, which is the same as being complicit in the expansion of settlements. This is a point that you are somehow not understanding.

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Anonymous #2 20h

Not to mention the fact that Israel historically has offered the Palestinians horrible deals for their own land from the start. If Israel genuinely wanted them to have sovereignty they wouldn’t have built the settlements in the first place & they definitely would have at least stopped decades ago along with the settler violence instead of aiding & protecting the settlers with the IDF. The whole they tried to offer them sovereignty is bs due to how unserious said deals were etc

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Anonymous #2 20h

You are “pretty sure” because you are making an assumption. As am I. I don’t have to accept your premise that is based on an assumption just like you don’t have to accept mine. But I’ve tried to make my assumption based strictly on what makes sense for a country both politically and militarily. It does not make sense for Israel to continue expansion into a territory they recognize as another sovereign state.

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Anonymous OP 20h

You only call Israel’s offers bad because you feel Palestinians should get all of it. That’s not how it works. If it was their land they would’ve had it and lost it at some point. The way the world works is we have an established and recognized sovereign nation already existing on top of land that another group is fighting for.

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Anonymous OP 20h

In a world of politics, military, and circumstance, a thing called leverage exists. Without it, you don’t really get to dictate the deal. You calling it a “bad deal” is essentially conceding that the Palestinian people would rather die trying to get all than live getting half, when as it’s stood for at least 50+ years Israel hardly even has to offer a quarter

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Anonymous #1 20h

Well you’re assuming they would recognize them as a sovereign nation. I mean there’s also settlements in Golan Heights as well as talks about potential settlements in South Lebanon. So idk why you’re making such an assumption.

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Anonymous #1 20h

(1)Why would they recognize it as a sovereign state? Netanyahu explicitly supported Hamas because he knew it would make creating a Palestinian state nearly impossible. Furthermore your premises are simply not grounded in physical reality, no political party in Israel seriously supports a Palestinian state and we have seen settlers terrorize and displace Palestinians for basically the entirety of Israel’s existence….

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Anonymous OP 20h

Also you’re saying that might makes right. As a way to somehow excuse Israel doing a genocide & setting up an apartheid. We all recognize that the Holocaust was evil & unjustifiable we don’t say well the Jews in Europe had no strength or leverage so they should have capitulated to the Nazis like that’s insane

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Anonymous #1 20h

(2)lastly, if you were Palestinian and your immediate family members have been killed or maimed by Israelis, your homes have been taken, and your entire nation is under constant threat, would you trust that the state responsible for what has been done to you and your people over the course of 70 something years? Would you be likely to lay down your arms in hope for peace?

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Anonymous #2 20h

Especially when you see that the Palestinians that have laid down their arms still got killed & had their land & homes taken by Israel. Not to mention over 1000 Palestinians being kidnapped & held by Israel under administrative detention

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Anonymous OP 20h

Israel annexed the golan heights. They haven’t annexed the West Bank. The year is 2026, like I said before as previous deals get denied and attacks continue, offers get worse and security goes up. Thats not a might = right argument, thats an observation. Invoking the holocaust here is interesting because no one advocates for the disillusion of Germany because of it and no one is asking them to create another state on land it occupies. So it’s not really relevant

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Anonymous #2 20h

Personally yes I would. If your grandparents said “We won’t give up an inch!” and died, and then your father said “we won’t give up an inch!” and died, and your brothers said “we won’t give up an inch!” and died, when faced with the option to give up an inch or continue the status quo, I would say “damn we failed, something is better than nothing + dying.”

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Anonymous #1 20h

And then you’d get shot

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Anonymous #2 20h

It becomes a problem when people would rather die than compromise. How else would you expect a sovereign nation to respond once their opposition would rather die than compromise? You’d probably increase security

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Anonymous #2 20h

That’s an assumption. Because there’s no evidence that would happen because Palestinians have yet to try it

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Anonymous #1 20h

“Increase security” he means mow the lawn when those pesky people who have been living there for generations get too rowdy

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Anonymous #2 20h

If you’re a Palestinian willing to try compromise for peace, why would you not take it and then go back to war if you’re still oppressed? Worst case scenario you’re back where you started and best case scenario you now live in peace in your own country

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Anonymous #1 20h

Israel’s actions in the West Bank are pretty much annexation with title so the point still stands & there’s again talk to do the same in South Lebanon. It is might makes right if that leverage comes through colonialism. Plenty of people did just like plenty of people did for Apartheid South Africa. Nazi Germany & Apartheid South Africa did experience disillusionment. The disillusionment of Israel doesn’t mean every Israeli leaves or dies it means an end to the genocide & apartheid & equals right

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Anonymous #2 20h

Again, if I meant that I would’ve said it

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Anonymous #1 20h

Or literally fund your radical opponents and allow a massive attack to justify a genocide to get rid of 2+ million inconvenient people living in a strip you forced them into years prior

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Anonymous OP 20h

Rights for everyone regardless of race & religion. Maybe a name change maybe not

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Anonymous #1 20h

You have quite the idealized picture of the world huh?

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Anonymous #2 20h

Like I said before, if the Palestinians accept an offer extended by Israel with the intention of living in peace, there is no logical reason why Israel would then continue to oppress another sovereign nation that wants to live in peace beside it. That’s not an “idealized picture of the world” that’s just thinking about what Israel would want outside the lens of “Israel would rather self implode than give up drinking the blood of dead babies.”

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Anonymous #2 20h

It’s ridiculous to think that the most economically successful country in the Middle East would just choose to self destruct because it loves killing people and its own soldiers too much. That’s a stupid analysis of the situation

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Anonymous #1 20h

It’s so insane to tell the people living under apartheid & genocide that they need to compromise with the people keeping them under apartheid & genocide for peace. Crazy when you consider the Palestinians that peacefully protest get killed & the Palestinians that raise arms also get killed. It’s almost like that people doing the genocide & maintaining the apartheid don’t actually care about peace or compromise.

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Anonymous OP 20h

It doesn’t matter how many people peacefully protest if other people are still blowing themselves up in pizza shops. What’s insane is, from the sidelines, telling people who are dying to continue dying because it’s worth it for the cause. That’s barbaric

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Anonymous #1 20h

Who said they are drinking the blood of babies? Your “logic” clearly doesn’t work out in reality because Israel (1) has no intention of allowing a Palestinian state and (2) has no mechanism by which they actually enforce laws against building settlements in land that they consider to have been promised to them by the God. You’re imagining a cute friendly little world where if only those damn Palestinians would stop attacking then Israel would “logically” live in peace

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Anonymous #1 20h

The “most economically successful country in the Middle East” wouldn’t even exist without the constant political & financial support of the worlds largest & strongest super power.

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Anonymous #2 20h

It’s called hyperbole my guy. Israel is literally a secular state, the official governmental policy on the West Bank is not that it is promised by God, rather that it is conquered land and agreed upon by both governments in the Oslo Accords on how to split security responsibilities.

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Anonymous OP 20h

If if if. But they do

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Anonymous #1 20h

If if if. But they do? Idk what you’re trying to say other then you support genocide & apartheid which is Nazi behavior

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Anonymous OP 19h

Sigh. I want Palestinians to live. Being realistic about how to achieve that is not “Nazi behavior,” and I believe that spectators with no skin in the game egging them on to keep dying for cause is sad. I also believe this all-or-nothing mentality is what is preventing peace, not Israel or Palestine specifically. The British fucked up here, but the delusions on how it’s gonna resolve by just dismantling Israel is ridiculous

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Anonymous #1 17h

All or nothing mentality? I didn’t realize thinking the people upholding an apartheid & currently committed a genocide are responsible for said actions and need to end it is an all or nothing mentality. I’m sure thinking the Nazis we’re bad for doing a genocide & the ones responsible for it was also an all or nothing mentality. Also again a crazy thing for you to say when we again see that Israel kill Palestinians when they’re peaceful & capitulate & kills them when they’re violent in response

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Anonymous OP 17h

To their oppression at the hands of Israel. It seems like it’s the Israeli who have an all or nothing mentality since they are the ones doing the apartheid & genocide.

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Anonymous OP 17h

You’re being disingenuous. The holocaust was not a land-driven conflict of nations. Nazi victims were not told that if they agreed to take 50% of the land they could live in peace next door. And a peaceful protest =/= a peaceful resolution. Like I said before, a single peaceful protest means nothing when there’s simultaneously coordinated suicide bombings adjacent. Israelis peacefully protest the Israeli government, should now we say Israel is officially fixed?

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Anonymous OP 17h

Palestinians are not responsible for what Israel does, but they're fully responsible for what they do. And if they and you would rather they continuing dying for the cause of the dismantling of Israel then I'd say that's a lot more destructive than anything else. It's literal suicide

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Anonymous #1 16h

You’re the one being disingenuous because you keep ignoring the fact despite it being brought up multiple times that Israel continues to kill Palestinians that peacefully protest or just simply capitulate. Also Nazi Germany committed a genocide & Israel is also committing a genocide unless you don’t believe what Israel is doing is a genocide idk how you don’t get the comparison.

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Anonymous OP 16h

1. Your arguments are defending collective punishment 2. Israel was building illegal settlements & killing Palestinians in the West Bank before 2023 so what you’re saying makes no sense 3. Israel was building illegal settlements before the founding of Hamas or even the 2nd Intifada so again what you’re saying makes no sense

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Anonymous OP 16h

Not to mention Zionist right after 10/7 claimed that Israel would end their assault on Gaza if Hamas gave back all the hostages. Repeatedly we were told all Hamas has to do to end things is give back all the hostages. Then it came out that was a lie Israel not only continued after getting back all of their hostages but Hamas immediately offered all the hostages back & Israel refused & instead decided they would rather do a years long assault even repeatedly killing their own hostages. Now the

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Anonymous OP 16h

Somehow you’ve fixated on an argument I never made. A literal opposite of what I’ve said. 2023 is just an example of Israel decreasing the quality of a deal and increasing security. One notch further like all the times before. My whole point is that the conflict started long before 2023. That so long as conflict continues, both will try to achieve what is best for themselves until an agreement is made or total military victory is achieved.

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Anonymous OP 16h

So long as no diplomatic agreement is made or no military victory is achieved by either side, they will continue to serve their own self interests because why would they care about the interests of their enemy?

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Anonymous OP 16h

Goal post is again moved. To now they need to give up all their arms. Not to mention the fact that Israel kept breaking the cease fires & killing Palestinians during the agreed upon ceasefires. But Hamas has offered to give up all of their homes & hand over leadership of Gaza to a different party but only after Israel fully leaves Gaza what Israel refuses to do. So idk how you can see all this & simply believe Israel will stop

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Anonymous OP 16h

No one ever said “just give back the hostages and we’ll forget this happened.” That’s a lie. That’s literally why they say when Hamas “offered all hostages in exchange for no Gaza invasion” Israel declined. Because they weren’t gonna just let it slide

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Anonymous #1 16h

You’re lying that was said routinely

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Anonymous OP 16h

It straight up was not

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Anonymous OP 16h

From the literal start of the war Israel stated 2 war objectives: Return of the hostages and the complete military and political destruction of Hamas. From day 1

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Anonymous OP 16h

Sorry I’ll fact check myself: It was Day 7 of the war officially when it was an official war goal

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Anonymous #1 16h

First of all it’s a genocide not a war although Zionst do love to deny it

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Anonymous OP 16h

Israel declared war

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Anonymous OP 16h

2nd a thing repeatedly said was this could all end if Hamas released all the hostages which they refuse to do. Maybe that’s just what they were saying in western media given that what is said in Israel is different. Also you’re saying things changed in 2023 but again you keep ignoring the mass killings & settlements before

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Anonymous #1 16h

Yes they declared war & committed a genocide

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Anonymous OP 16h

You’re gonna call me names and deflect because I called Israel’s published goals of war war goals? I’m not ignoring it. I’ve addressed it like 4 times now. They’ve. Been. Fighting. For. 80. Years. Every escalation *gasp* escalates the fighting!

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Anonymous #1 15h

No you’ve repeatedly said that Israel maintains an apartheid & builds illegal settlements & kills peaceful protesters & Palestinians capitulating as well as Americans & beats journalists because of things happening elsewhere specifically Gaza so I have heard you. Yes it was still repeatedly said that things Israel just wanted the hostages back. Hamas offered all the hostages as well as disarming & stepping down from power. Yet Israel refused it. Israel also keeps killing people during agreed

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Anonymous OP 15h

Upon cease fires. So even your claim that Israel is simply going along with their “stated war plans/goals” doesn’t make sense unless their goal is to take over Gaza & the West Bank. Remember a system isn’t what we say it is a system is what it does

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Anonymous OP 15h

So you’re just gonna ignore that you’re actually wrong and that the official policy of the Israeli government was never “just get the hostages back and we’ll forget this ever happened?” You’re gonna keep running with that when it’s the most easily verifiable falsity? I’ve repeated again and again that there exists a diplomatic solution to the conflict and that endless fighting (clearly) isn’t a solution that benefits the Palestinian people, it only brings death and destruction.

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Anonymous OP 15h

The West Bank has nothing to do with their war goals dude. The war is in Gaza. What Israel does in their was vs what they do for the benefit of their country are 2 different things. Israel had political goals before 2023 as well. Their goal is to best befit themselves as country. If expanding settlements achieves that goal for them they’re gonna do it until, again I’ll restate, a permanent diplomatic agreement or total military victory. Those are the 2 options here.

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Anonymous OP 15h

My sole opinion I’ve been making here is that it is the best interest of the Palestinian people to resolve things diplomatically because they’re severely outmatched militarily. And that includes accepting that they don’t have the leverage to dictate the terms of the agreement offered

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Anonymous #1 15h

I’m confused the West Bank has nothing to do with Gaza yet you claim the only way to stop the illegal settlements & killings in the West Bank is for Hamas to give their arms in Gaza

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Anonymous #1 15h

Okay you’re saying that all the Palestinians should just lie that and hope that the Israelis are nice & you’re also claiming that the Israelis would be nice

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Anonymous OP 15h

*lie down

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Anonymous OP 15h

War goals in Gaza since 2023 have nothing to do with Israeli policy in the West Bank correct. Additionally the West Bank and Gaza are the core of a future Palestinian state. These are not very difficult concepts.

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Anonymous OP 15h

If the Palestinians all get together & say “Sorry that our actions have caused you guys to uphold a multiple decades long apartheid & a now 3 year long genocide we apologize. Will you please end the multiple decades long apartheid & 3 years of genocide. We promise to behave & do whatever you want please treat us as human beings of equal worth we’re really sorry for our actions” You believe that will bring peace & the Israelis will stop?

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Anonymous OP 15h

You’re a spectator on the sidelines saying Palestinians should continue to die rather than explore a diplomatic solution. Only one of us here seems to be advocating for obvious mass death and it’s not me

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Anonymous #1 15h

No I never said they should die you assume Israel would stop despite them showing zero evidence of it. Also despite that never have worked to end any other apartheid or genocide in history & Zionist believe they’re somehow special & unique whey Israel is literally doing the exact same stuff.

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Anonymous OP 15h

They have a seat at the negotiation table. They have no leverage. Their own actions with very predictable consequences escalated things in 2023 causing even less diplomatic flexibility. Advocating for the continuous use of military conflict when one side is severely outmatched is advocating for death. Gaza is Palestinian today because Israel withdrew. That was diplomatic progress. And now here we are. Going the opposite direction

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Anonymous OP 15h

But my honest opinion is that Israel no matter what the Palestinians do won’t stop. I also believe the only way they will stop is if they are forced to as history has shown us. I agree that the Palestinians can’t force them to stop & don’t have the power. I also will never say they should or shouldn’t fight since again Israel kills them either way. Germany wasn’t stopped by only Jews, Apartheid South Africa wasn’t ended by only Black South Africans, Slavery wasn’t ended only by slaves etc

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Anonymous OP 15h

I believe only a country like China or the U.S. could end things. Once the U.S. fully ends support to Israel things will begin to slowly change.

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Anonymous #1 15h

Also you keep saying they lost leverage in 2023 because of Hamas. Bibi has said multiple times he was always against a two state solution & was only stringing them along. He didn’t only come into power in 2023. Like regardless of Hamas in 2023 there was never any intentions of giving the Palestinian sovereignty. If that was the case they would have at least stopped the expansion of Settlements a long time ago. To think otherwise is ridiculous

1